Fancy Stats for 2023

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This is what we have been getting from Hunt and Hazelton. Low minutes with a very high level of involvement, and a willingness to come back inside their own end rather than wait for the ball. It's obvious they are under different instructions. Hunt says his job is to "fly off the bench".

I think we know what we get with Hunt and Williams, but if one of Hazelton, Colquhoun or Kaufusi can step into a bigger role, imo Sifa would be a very good option to take over one of those two low-minute bench impact spots.
For the most part yes, but Leniu is even more of an impact prop than them I reckon. And I think (and thus, it is true) Talakai would be similar.
Can't really imagine Talakai starting, Leniu very very rarely starts.

Hunt has been trusted to start, because he appears to fit the body type Fitz wanted in a starter and there were other injuries. Tommy I can imagine in the future getting starts, but that is speculation. The lower minutes, high work bench role definitely their preferred role, and probably suits both better currently.
I could picture every middle we used this year being selected as a starter middle ahead of Talakai.

Leniu started one game this season and in his career has 11 starts to 91 bench games. Royce is 22-34. Maybe we have just had way more injuries, but plenty of guys lower down 'pecking order' have started ahead of Leniu.

Leniu's 2023 start their forward pack was
16 Leniu
10 JFH
11 Sorro
12 Hosking
13 Eisenhuth

15 L Smith
16 Garner
17 Liam Henry
so they really weren't working with much choice here.
Be interesting to see if Roosters keep him focused on impact or try to convert him into a 'starter'/longer minute player.
 

Sparkles

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I guess the question is whether there is a player who can do that work rate stuff at a similar level, while also being an improvement elsewhere. A lot of the options seem like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
For sure. Ideally the rest of the backs would compensate I guess. I recall you mentioning Kennedy's workrate is pretty low.

Not sure if it was in your summary, but how many metres would you need to find if you had a Tracey at centre and Talakai as a benchie?
 
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For sure. Ideally the rest of the backs would compensate I guess. I recall you mentioning Kennedy's workrate is pretty low.

Not sure if it was in your summary, but how many metres would you need to find if you had a Tracey at centre and Talakai as a benchie?
Probably not something you could tell for sure from this year's data, since Tracey rarely played centre.

In the one game he played centre his output was 1/2 Sifa's average and 1/3 of his peak.
 

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Probably not something you could tell for sure from this year's data, since Tracey rarely played centre.

In the one game he played centre his output was 1/2 Sifa's average and 1/3 of his peak.
Say you get in a fairly regulation 2nd ruck back, how big a gap are we taking between them and Talakai? Just wondering if it's something you could find amongst the current players or if Talakai is so far ahead you're definitely well behind without him
 
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Say you get in a fairly regulation 2nd ruck back, how big a gap are we taking between them and Talakai? Just wondering if it's something you could find amongst the current players or if Talakai is so far ahead you're definitely well behind without him
You could certainly cover it by committee, and to a certain extent this is a tactical decision.

Looking at the Storm game in round 15. The forwards rarely came back inside the 20.

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The team got pumped that game (and hemmed in their own end) so Fitz adjusted that. The following week was very different (a lot more blue).

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... then in the finals they had everyone getting behind the ball.

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There are no free lunches though. When you ask your forwards to put in that extra effort to get back earlier and take hit-ups that could have been done by Sifa, that's a little bit of energy they don't have for something else. Having the forwards play that way definitely makes for better counting stats, but it may not result in wins.
 
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I should have added that some of this can be situational too, or indicative of how the other team ends their sets. If the opposition is doing a great job of landing kicks 1m out from the try line you are going to see forwards walking back and the back 5 tacking those early runs, but if they are running on the last, kicking over the side-line or making errors playing hot potato, you are going to see a lot of tackle-zero play the balls with the forwards already behind the ball.

Just for shits and giggles I did the first of the 2016 GF with this model. This was when we had no 6-agains and scrums for the ball over the side-line. The back 5 were still heavily involved, but because there were a lot more set starts you saw massive numbers from Prior and Fifita. They were still walking back, but they were walking back to take a hit-up from a scrum on play 1 rather than a ptb on play 3.

Personally I believe that the "handover on ball over the sideline" has had a far greater impact on the game than the 6-again rule, because it has resulted in kickers deliberately keeping the ball in play, which in-turn has resulted in everyone's back 5 taking on a bigger responsibility in making yardage.
 
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Next game up will be round 20 (getting pumped by the Warriors).

I'm half way through that one and noticed a big disparity in possession between a couple of players (Wilton and Graham) so I want to take the opportunity to demonstrate how much possession can vary between two players in the same game - again to reinforce the point that relying on "runs" or "metres" is an awful way to evaluate player performance.

Here are the games I've modelled so far, with team possession in blue, and then the highest and lowest possession players. There are some games where it is fairly close (Storm Rd15) and in general it doesn't vary more than 8-10% - but there is some wild variance in Rd 16 and Rd 20 (first half).

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Here is a really simple graph which shows how many extra tackles a team will make as the opposition possession rate goes up. This is very easy way to show that having the ball more than the other guys is the key to winning attacking volume stats (metres, runs, kick metres....blah blah blah).

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Looking at that 23% difference in the first half in round 20 between the lowest player (Graham) and the highest player (Wilton) with comparable ball in play time Wilton was on the field for ~20 more play the balls in possession, and ~20 play the balls less in defence. That's 3-4 sets of six in defence... or conversely 15-20 more opportunities to take a hit-up while also having to defend for 3-4 sets less.

Using that particular half of footy might be an outlier though, so let's use a game where the team possession was close to 50% and the high and low players played similar minutes but still had a noticeable difference. Let's go with Finucane (37 minutes @ 42%) v McInnes (39 minutes @52% against Manly in Rd 21 (team possession 49%).

Isolating these two players tells me that purely from a metres point of view McInnes crushed Finucane (~double the running metres). The Ch9 commentary team and your favourite dipshit podcasters will tell you here that Finucane is getting too old and should be moved on or play less minutes....

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However, there was a 10% possession rate difference between these two players, and they played very similar minutes (37 minutes BIP for Finucane, 39 for McInnes).

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If we re-adjust that simple "extra tackles" graph to 38 minutes of ball in play rather than 80 minutes of game time, the magic number here is 46. This means that Cameron McInnes had to defend for ~46 tackles less than and got to attack for ~46 tackles more than Dale Finucane. This is huge in the context of the players' individual statistical output.

Even in "normal" circumstances a 10% difference in possession can be huge in terms of how it effects "volume stats" like metres, runs and tackles.

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Looking at how these two players compare in the model, we see that adjusted for possession their attacking output was very comparable, but Mcinnes was a little busier in defence (which is understandable given the reduced overall defensive load).


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I do understand that in this thread I am somewhat "preaching to the choir" to a certain extent (the posters who will bother to read it probably already get it) but this is still very solid and useful data, and I feel it definitely adds further weight to the argument that volume stats for Rugby League tell you very little other than that 1) the player has a motor and 2) the coach trusts him to be out there more than some other guys.

One final thought here is that once I have all of the games done I can look at which games the combined forward involvement was best, and also do a comparison of 4 forward bench vs 3 forward bench etc.

Enjoy! :)
 
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Round 20 v Warriors
* High attacking involvement from Colquhoun and Williams
* High defensive involvement from Hazelton
* Wilton very highly involved up to his injury

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... and since I'm sure you are all sick of running Kaufusi updates, here is McInnes.


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Round 24 vs Titans
I know I'm doing an odd order, but there is method in the madness.

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Here's another bit of "very early" analysis.

These are the top six all-around performances from the games I've modelled in terms of combined attacking and defensive involvement.

Unsurprisingly, these are all low-minute bench performances, with McInnes in round 1 being the only player from this group to have more than 20 minutes in the game - with 31 minutes broken in to 3 stints (13, 11 and 7).

I looked at performances that were high involvement for more than half a game, and it was basically Dale Finucane's personal graph with a 3 dots for McInnes and 1 for Toby.

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Just completed the Souths game in Perth.

Royce broke my scale.

From now on the numbers will be the same, but the graphs will look different because I have to scale up the Y axis and adjust the dotted lines.

I can also do Hiroti’s “full season” stats now :D
 
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Sounds Rd 23
This was the "Moylan named but didn't go on" game, so we saw a lot of players get more minutes than normal.

Williams and Rudolf tracking back inside their own 20 was a feature of this game, along with McInnes having massive involvement whenever he was on.

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The "involvement v BIP" graph for this one is exactly as expected aside from BHU (second game back from injury being eased in).

1. Benchies going absolutely nuts,
2. High minute middles maintaining a high work-rate for 1/2 - 2/3 of the game.
3. Second rowers and hooker with a solid work rate across the whole game.

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Instead of throwing up a season tally for Hiroti (one game) I thought comparing his one game output to the average for the other players might be a better way to look at it.

In terms of involvment you don't give much away by swapping Hiroti in for Ronnie. He'll take hard runs in the right part of the field.

Note also that Tracey has overtaken Sifa in the running averages. He's an animal in his own end.



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Round 19 vs Tigers

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... and here is a running update on Brailey. Note the scale (I've zoomed in to make these readable).

A few things to note here:

- While he makes lots of tackles per game, Brailey typically makes less tackles per minute than most middles.
- If we set the bar at 100 for attacking involvement (half what we would say is good for a middle) his average falls right on that line, with 4 highly involved games and two with low involvement

The two common claims with Brailey tend to be 1) he isn't involved in attack enough against the better teams, and 2) he would benefit from a rest so that he doesn't get "worn out" from his high defensive load.

As far as #1 is concerned, I don't think this says much either way. He did have low involvement against Canberra and the Roosters, but he also was close to his average against the Storm and Warriors in games with very little possession. I think we need more data on that one (and I think "good team" is hard to define... since it opens up the debate about whether Souths and Parra were good teams at the start of the season).

On #2, it depends if you want to read anything in to the Raiders game in round 3. That is the game with his highest defensive load and his lowest attacking involvement... which would support the argument to give him a rest. The other games don't really support it though. The next 5 games were his five highest in both defence and attack. It seems the Raiders game was a bit of an outlier there. Note again that even this Raiders game is not an excessively high defensive load. It's about half way between what we see from a 30 minute middle (Kaufusi/BHU) and a 50 minute middle (Cam/Dale).

I think we can say from this (so far) that as Blayke's defensive load went up, it did not negatively effect his ability to get involved in attack.

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Something else with Brailey. Over half his runs come in midfield, and ~1/4 come in his own 40.


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I would hypothesize that opposition quality isn't the main factor here, but rather field position. If the opposition constantly forces the Sharks to come out of their own 20, Brailey is less likely to be run... and conversely if they cough up a bunch of good ball he is also less likely to run.

Looking at how much possession occurs between the two 20m lines gives us a somewhat good indicator of whether Brailey is going to be highly involved with the ball. If more than ~40% of the Sharks possession occurs outside this area, it makes it less likely that he will run.

I know this sounds like common sense, but 80kg players aren't the best at taking hit-ups off their own line or barging over from 1m out. Unless the markers are really sloppy, Blayke isn't running in those situations.


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The two main outliers on the above graph are the two games where he ran the most outside of midfield.

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So if you want to shut down Blayke Brailey's running game... either pin the Sharks on their own try line, or let them spend the whole game attacking yours.

More data could invalidate this... but it's a worthwhile observation :)
 
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Gotta say too... from re-watching the games in great details, per minute of game time Jesse Colquhoun would easily lead the NRL in copping high shots that go un-penalised.
 

Rob

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Not surprised I wouldn’t be going low on those thighs.
1 of those legs could feed a tribe for a month.
 
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Jesse Colquhoun - Final
I have now done all of the games which Jesse played in. Here are his final numbers, with the scale for defence bumped up a bit (I think attack was weighted a bit too heavy).

I'd be shocked if overall he doesn't have the highest level of involvement for all middles. Low minutes, big motor, insane defensive work rate.

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A reminder of the scale here (with some adjustments since post #1 because the low-minute players broke it).

Attack
6 runs in half a game at 50% possession, spread across the field = 165

Defence

20 tackles @80% efficiency in half a game at 50% possession = 165
 
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