Official Cameron McInnes

bort

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Also you know who makes more tackles between McInnes at 9 and Blayke at 9?

It’s Blayke at 9 with McInnes on at 13

Overall defensive workload isn’t a concern

Ok. So now please show me evidence that Brailey being less-tired change anything.

Does he miss more tackles the more minutes he plays?

Does he run less the more minutes he plays?

Back when he was coming off the bench, did he run more?
I don’t think we have good info on how Blayke would play if he knew he just had 65 minutes ahead of him instead of 80. I don’t think it’d be that outrageous to try McInnes at the start. Some teams def try and target him early which might impact his effectiveness later. I’d be open to looking at this option to see if it did open Blayke up at all.
 

BurgoShark

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Also you know who makes more tackles between McInnes at 9 and Blayke at 9?

It’s Blayke at 9 with McInnes on at 13

Overall defensive workload isn’t a concern


I don’t think we have good info on how Blayke would play if he knew he just had 65 minutes ahead of him instead of 80. I don’t think it’d be that outrageous to try McInnes at the start. Some teams def try and target him early which might impact his effectiveness later. I’d be open to looking at this option to see if it did open Blayke up at all.
Jets tried it in 2018. Outside of one game didn’t run any more than he is does now. He’s just not that guy. Never has been.

… but this still says nothing about whether or not it would make the team better. Say you play Brailey for 60 and Cam for 20… that is 20 minutes of all of those good “McInnes as a forward” things that you give up, and 20 minutes extra McInnes has in his legs when he goes in to the forwards to try to get those quick ptb’s.

Even if you can make a good case for Brailey playing less (which nobody has yet), you still need to make a case that taking McInnes out of the forward rotation for 20 minutes is a good idea.

The only reasonable argument I have seen is “say you’ve got Jack Williams on the bench as the extra forward, you know you will get a high energy 20 from him. It might be preferable to give a high minute player a bit of a rest rather than having Jack play 0 minutes”. That isn’t specific to Brailey though. It could be applied to anyone playing more than half a game.
 
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Blix

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I think you are making this up...


Yearly averages were 30, 61, 62. Blayke is 43, 41,43. Averaging that out it is not "nearly twice" as much. You might want to check that your Epson calculator hasn't been hacked by the Russians.

Notwithstanding them having completely different coaches, playing styles, and rules, the difference here is maybe 1-2 times per game where he takes the tackle instead of finding a runner. Running metres is completely irrelevant.


Has that been measured? Does he get quick ptb when he scoots on his own, or only when he runs as a forward with support?


This is just completely incorrect. Across the period you are referencing Blayke makes more tackles per game. 51 vs 47. It's still irrelevant though, because making a few extra tackles per game could just be the result of being on a team who has the ball less.


Offloads! Now that's a stat which tells us who the best hookers are!


Irrelevant. Try assist is a fantasy stat. It doesn't tell us who is good.


Coach seems happy with him. I think he has been great. Needs to clean up the errors, but otherwise he is playing exactly how the team needs him to. Solid in defence, great service, play a link-man role when needed, talk to his halves, etc.


That must be why they moved him to lock.


... which was after he moved to lock and became their best player.

Just wanted to comment on a few points you made and stated were made up!…..as you said happy to point out flaws or attack a poor argument!

- the answer to your question “Has that been measured?” In relation to the speed of the play of the ball.

Yes they do, McInnes is consistently quick (no they don’t state whether it’s from dummy half or not)

- in relation to “This is just completely incorrect. Across the period you are referencing Blayke makes more tackles per game. 51 vs 47”

No idea how you came to that total…using nrl.com, Cam is 48 tackles a year at hooker last 4 years at stains (he did play 7 of the 18 games I can see at hooker in 2020 as well)….Blayke is 40 over the last 3 years (43 last year)

- In relation to “That must be why they moved him to lock” and “which was after he moved to lock and became their best player”

Neither point is correct, he was their player of the year in 2019 at hooker and captain as well.



Anyway, I have no idea how to use the multi quote clearly and have no intention of spending any more time on this…..just wanted to see where the discrepancy were on stats, which apart from the run metres which as I said was based on a portion of time where he played lock all seem factual……and not made up!!!!!

In relation to wanting to see a good argument for McInnes at hooker.

As you indicated there is different structures in place in each team, so there really is no way to know for sure if he will be good there unless trying it. But based off the fact Cam was stains player of the year at hooker (and by moving to lock meant hunt was in the starting 13) is an indication he has at the very minimum a chance of being good
 
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BurgoShark

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Sorry. Saying you made them up was not fair on you.

- the answer to your question “Has that been measured?” In relation to the speed of the play of the ball.

Yes they do, McInnes is consistently quick (no they don’t state whether it’s from dummy half or not)
No. It hasn’t ptb speed is measured, but it is not mapped against what position he was playing, or whether it was a sunny half run or not. You’d have to look at individual game by game stats for this.

I picked two random games from 2019 (rd 4 and rd 19). His ptb speeds were bottom 3 for all players on the team (slowest). Those could be outliers, or not. I don’t know.

I’m happy to say that it is faster than Brailey’s, but comparing these two players we are only talking about an extra 1-2 runs per game across 80. If he is only playing 15-20 there, how much of an advantage would this be?

- in relation to “This is just completely incorrect. Across the period you are referencing Blayke makes more tackles per game. 51 vs 47”

No idea how you came to that total…using nrl.com, Cam is 48 tackles a year at hooker last 4 years at stains (he did play 7 of the 18 games I can see at hooker in 2020 as well)….Blayke is 40 over the last 3 years (43 last year)
I ignored 2020 for McInnes. Averages are unreliable for that year. Something I learned as part of the other stats tracking I’ve done is that McInnes in 2020 sometimes he played a different position than he was listed (hooker vs lock) and other times he switched mid-game. You’d have to watch every game and figure it out.

I have actually done that. For any game McInnes played lock for more than 2/3 of his time on the field, I included his stats as a middle forward. Not perfect, but much, much better than using averages.

It’s still irrelevant though. A few tackles either way means nothing, and almost every Sharks forward has a similar work rate in defence to these two (everyone except Hunt and Kaufusi).

- In relation to “That must be why they moved him to lock” and “which was after he moved to lock and became their best player”

Neither point is correct, he was their player of the year in 2019 at hooker and captain as well.
You’re right. Dragons fans would have been sad to lose him even before he moved to lock.

As you indicated there is different structures in place in each team, so there really is no way to know for sure if he will be good there unless trying it. But based off the fact Cam was stains player of the year at hooker (and by moving to lock meant hunt was in the starting 13) is an indication he has at the very minimum a chance of being good
There is no argument here for playing Brailey less.

There is no argument here for moving McInnes out of the forwards.
 
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BurgoShark

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I think it’s time for @Blix and @BurgoShark to talk over a “virtual beer” and repair the friendship
It's all good. He thinks I'm having a go at him, but I'm not. I'm trying to have an actual discussion. He says that Brailey should play less and that the way the team uses McInnes currently should change. I'm open to agreeing with him, but I need an explanation as to why the current method isn't working.

These things aren't linked to each other. Even if you make a case for Brailey playing less, the answer doesn't automatically become McInnes. The best solution might be to bring in a proper bench hooker and keep McInnes in his current role.
 
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bort

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It's all good. He thinks I'm having a go at him, but I'm not. I'm trying to have an actual discussion. He says that Brailey should play less and that the way the team uses McInnes currently should change. I'm open to agreeing with him, but I need an explanation as to why the current method isn't working.

These things aren't linked to each other. Even if you make a case for Brailey playing less, the answer doesn't automatically become McInnes. The best solution might be to bring in a proper bench hooker and keep McInnes in his current role.
The way of the internet
 

Blix

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It's all good. He thinks I'm having a go at him, but I'm not. I'm trying to have an actual discussion. He says that Brailey should play less and that the way the team uses McInnes currently should change. I'm open to agreeing with him, but I need an explanation as to why the current method isn't working.

These things aren't linked to each other. Even if you make a case for Brailey playing less, the answer doesn't automatically become McInnes. The best solution might be to bring in a proper bench hooker and keep McInnes in his current role.

Don’t think you are having a go, just feel like your response was not accurate. You claimed things like the tackle counts I listed were completely incorrect but they were actually correct.

You stated that when I said McInnes was good at hooker, that he was crap at hooker and only became popular when moved to lock. Yet he was their player of the year at hooker.

Anyway as I said I am 100% easy and really am on holidays with better things to do then debate something which we both agree won’t indicate whether McInnes would be successful at hooker for the sharks.

However, I do think that he has shown he is worth consideration given being player of the year (albeit at stains) at hooker.

Also I have never mentioned cutting Braileys minutes. I did mention I wonder if there is any point where we might see McInnes at hooker.

Anyway onwards and upwards….
 

BurgoShark

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Don’t think you are having a go, just feel like your response was not accurate. You claimed things like the tackle counts I listed were completely incorrect but they were actually correct.

You stated that when I said McInnes was good at hooker, that he was crap at hooker and only became popular when moved to lock. Yet he was their player of the year at hooker.

Anyway as I said I am 100% easy and really am on holidays with better things to do then debate something which we both agree won’t indicate whether McInnes would be successful at hooker for the sharks.

However, I do think that he has shown he is worth consideration given being player of the year (albeit at stains) at hooker.

Also I have never mentioned cutting Braileys minutes. I did mention I wonder if there is any point where we might see McInnes at hooker.

Anyway onwards and upwards….
All good mate. Misinterpretation. You said "last 3 years of hooker at Dragons" which for me didn't include 2020. Like you said though, who makes more tackles or runs an extra 15 metres per game tells us nothing either way.

If the Sharks had a need for a hooker, McInnes would be a fine option.
 
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Blix

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Yeah all good!

I rate him as a player and like what he brings to the team!
 

Wiz

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Yeah all good!

I rate him as a player and like what he brings to the team!
Don’t know how burg turned the argument into whether McInnes is a better 9 than Brailey, your point is pretty simple - he can do it and has done it especially if it’s just for 20 mins..

It would be good to use McInnes for the first 20 weather the storm etc

We know what Brailey is like over 80 it would be nice to see what he’s like with fresher legs, considering he’s smaller as well as him having more energy it isn’t a miracle to suggest he might go better - it’s a formula the top teams know

You can replace McInnes 20 in the forwards with Jack Williams

I may be wrong but it gives McInnes a bigger break because from 20mins in up until after half time he would be resting

I just don’t think Fitz is a risk taker I get the feel he is more a stubborn type
 

Milkshark

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Don’t know how burg turned the argument into whether McInnes is a better 9 than Brailey, your point is pretty simple - he can do it and has done it especially if it’s just for 20 mins..

It would be good to use McInnes for the first 20 weather the storm etc

We know what Brailey is like over 80 it would be nice to see what he’s like with fresher legs, considering he’s smaller as well as him having more energy it isn’t a miracle to suggest he might go better - it’s a formula the top teams know

You can replace McInnes 20 in the forwards with Jack Williams

I may be wrong but it gives McInnes a bigger break because from 20mins in up until after half time he would be resting

I just don’t think Fitz is a risk taker I get the feel he is more a stubborn type
I like that idea. Bring Brailey on after 20 and see if his running game improves.

McInnes is solid, but could easily be replaced in the forwards.
 

Thresher

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I think that McInnes is already doing the type of runs close to the ruck that people are complaining that Bailey is not doing.

It's just as first receiver rather than dummy half.
 

Sparkles

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I think that McInnes is already doing the type of runs close to the ruck that people are complaining that Bailey is not doing.

It's just as first receiver rather than dummy half.
It's a super common tactic. Try to catch the markers off balance through a quick play the ball, then send another big unit right into that space next to them so they have to scramble in cover. Repeat until they're buggered.
 

Thresher

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It's a super common tactic. Try to catch the markers off balance through a quick play the ball, then send another big unit right into that space next to them so they have to scramble in cover. Repeat until they're buggered.
Of course it is. I'm just saying that McInnes's version could be seen to be similar to a hooker's dart from dummy half.

He's not that big and goes for quick metres and a quick play the ball and it's quite often close to where the dummy half would be running from anyway.
 

BurgoShark

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I think that McInnes is already doing the type of runs close to the ruck that people are complaining that Bailey is not doing.

It's just as first receiver rather than dummy half.
It's a super common tactic. Try to catch the markers off balance through a quick play the ball, then send another big unit right into that space next to them so they have to scramble in cover. Repeat until they're buggered.
Of course it is. I'm just saying that McInnes's version could be seen to be similar to a hooker's dart from dummy half.

He's not that big and goes for quick metres and a quick play the ball and it's quite often close to where the dummy half would be running from anyway.
This is also something the hooker trains for. It's not just to tire out the markers. It is to try to make them do a 1-on-1 tackle. That means a quicker ptb, metre metres on the next ruck and/or a retreating defensive line for an edge to attack.

One of the ways that teams know if their hooker is doing a good job is how many times he can create one-on-one tackle situations. 100% Brailey trains for this, and the quicker foot-speed middles would too. Williams and McInnes are the best at it.
 
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