The Spoon - Shameful or Quickly forgotten?

[Sir Chadley]

Whenever the bastards played against us, the bounce of the ball always went their way - they whinged and moaned and carried on when things went against them, they poached players with an open chequebook and made no secret of the fact, and just thought they were the bees knees.

Hate them with a passion!

 

[CrankyShark]

While many on here cannot recall who won the spoon in previous years, perhaps that's because it wasn't us. I assure you, I'll never forget 'winning' the spoon, nor should any or you if it happens this year.

Two spoons and a premiership may sound like a pretty good deal, but we aren't looking like achieving an important part of that anytime soon.

I don't want the spoon, and we shouldn't need it to instigate change and action.

I read the article Roy Masters wrote about ASADA with interest on the weekend. He made the observation that there is far less player turn over in the AFL than in the NRL and this was contributing greatly to Essendon's woes, who would lose twenty players, while at worst we would lose five.

The salary cap, which is far from perfect, contributes to the high player turn over and teams can go from spoon to contenders in a very short space of time. With the cap, every team should get a turn with the spoon, AND A PREMIERSHIP. Look at how quickly the fortunes of the Eels, Tigers and Panthers have turned around. We require a rebuild once the ASADA saga is done. There is no reason we can't be contenders in three years but the club culture and management need to be dealt with as a part of the rebuilding process.

 

[HaroldBishop]

I read the article Roy Masters wrote about ASADA with interest on the weekend. He made the observation that there is far less player turn over in the AFL than in the NRL and this was contributing greatly to Essendon's woes, who would lose twenty players, while at worst we would lose five.

The salary cap, which is far from perfect, contributes to the high player turn over and teams can go from spoon to contenders in a very short space of time. With the cap, every team should get a turn with the spoon, AND A PREMIERSHIP. Look at how quickly the fortunes of the Eels, Tigers and Panthers have turned around. We require a rebuild once the ASADA saga is done. There is no reason we can't be contenders in three years but the club culture and management need to be dealt with as a part of the rebuilding process.

The AFL has a salary cap too though. The difference is they have a draft which makes it much harder for players to change clubs. That has been watered down somewhat recently and looks likely to continue.

What the good clubs do in the NRL is move the odd older player on, even though they might be an important part of the team. It's ruthless but it's what you need to do to keep re-generating your list.

 

[CrankyShark]

The AFL has a salary cap too though. The difference is they have a draft which makes it much harder for players to change clubs. That has been watered down somewhat recently and looks likely to continue.

What the good clubs do in the NRL is move the odd older player on, even though they might be an important part of the team. It's ruthless but it's what you need to do to keep re-generating your list.

The three clubs I mentioned Eels, Panthers, Tigers have done just that, although I wouldn't classify any of those clubs as well run (with the possible exception of the Panthers now). Ricky sacked half the playing list, panicked and left. Gus moved on Jennings, Civonaceva etc (when he did it I thought he had finally gone mad), and the Tigers got rid of Benji Marshall to stop the players running the show and in doing so allowed them to hang on to their juniors in the process.

To keep re-generating your list, players must be stopped from running the show, and the club can't pander to supporters who play favourites. Our rebuild should be starting with a coach who isn't mates with the players, because the players inevitably wind up running the show.

 

[HaroldBishop]

The three clubs I mentioned Eels, Panthers, Tigers have done just that, although I wouldn't classify any of those clubs as well run (with the possible exception of the Panthers now). Ricky sacked half the playing list, panicked and left. Gus moved on Jennings, Civonaceva etc (when he did it I thought he had finally gone mad), and the Tigers got rid of Benji Marshall to stop the players running the show and in doing so allowed them to hang on to their juniors in the process.

To keep re-generating your list, players must be stopped from running the show, and the club can't pander to supporters who play favourites. Our rebuild should be starting with a coach who isn't mates with the players, because the players inevitably wind up running the show.

Penrith is definitely well run now, don't know what the hell is going on at Wests.

The clubs I was thinking of are Easts moved on Ricketson years ago, Dogs with Ennis, Manly with Stewart. Has to be done unfortunately. I know Manly has issues at board level but their footy dept seems to be run well.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

I read the article Roy Masters wrote about ASADA with interest on the weekend. He made the observation that there is far less player turn over in the AFL than in the NRL and this was contributing greatly to Essendon's woes, who would lose twenty players, while at worst we would lose five.

The salary cap, which is far from perfect, contributes to the high player turn over and teams can go from spoon to contenders in a very short space of time. With the cap, every team should get a turn with the spoon, AND A PREMIERSHIP. Look at how quickly the fortunes of the Eels, Tigers and Panthers have turned around. We require a rebuild once the ASADA saga is done. There is no reason we can't be contenders in three years but the club culture and management need to be dealt with as a part of the rebuilding process.

In this formation of the premiership competition, the NRL, there is plenty of teams that havent won, and some not come close, to winning the gf, let alone making it.
Raiders
Eels (made a few gfs)
Sharks
Warriors (made a gf)
Cowboys (made a gf)
Titans (younger team)
Rabbitohs

thats 7 of the 16 teams, nearly half.

In that time the wooden spooners/premiers have been:-

1998- Magpies/Broncos (Sharks 11th/20)
1999- Magpies/Storm (Sharks 1st)
2000-Cowboys/Broncos (Sharks 8th)
2001- Panthers/Knights (Sharks 4th)
2002- Dogs/Roosters (Sharks 5th)
2003- Rabbitohs/Panthers (Sharks 12th)
2004 - Rabbitohs/Dogs (Sharks 11th)
2005- Knights/Tigers (Sharks 7th)
2006- Rabbitohs/Broncos (Sharks 13th)
2007- Panthers/Storm(stripped) (Sharks 11th)
2008- Bulldogs/Sea Eagles (Sharks 3rd)
2009- Roosters/Storm (Stripped) ( Sharks 15th)
2010- Storm/Dragons (Sharks 14th)
2011- Titans/Sea Eagles (Sharks 13th)
2012- Eels/Storm (Sharks 7th)
2013- Eels/Roosters (Sharks 5th)

8/16 (now 17) trips to the finals since the NRL came along isnt terrible, given teams like the Rabbitohs, Dogs, Panthers and Eels all have multiple spoons in that side.

Storm made 4 consecutive gfs, Roosters made 3. Storm were done for cap rorting (but to their credit they didnt develop most of the blokes).

Its really a B effort for us. more trips deep in the finals would really have been good for our credentials, we've never been a threat, thats the problem.

The salary cap works, but unfortunately we have teams bending it to breaking point every season. Broncos are about to get away with it. Apparently their situation is mirrored to that of Gallens cap issue last season, however they used leagues club funds to top up 3rd party deals for consecutive seasons, which IMO is a rort. a 1 off that is reported by the club is not a team trying to cheat. Doing it for 3 years without rectification is the work of someone who doesnt give a **** about the rules.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

Penrith is definitely well run now, don't know what the hell is going on at Wests.

The clubs I was thinking of are Easts moved on Ricketson years ago, Dogs with Ennis, Manly with Stewart. Has to be done unfortunately. I know Manly has issues at board level but their footy dept seems to be run well.

IMO Stewart was moved on in order to make a quality attempt at retaining DCE. However, DCE is gunna be a greedy ****, and the club is gunna shed a few quality players (and by the sounds of it lose the core of the successful run they have had in the last 8 seasons) in the process. Manly is a club which is going to look very different in coming years, and IMO struggle to be top of the game

 

[hamsy44]

which IMO is a rort. a 1 off that is reported by the club is not a team trying to cheat. Doing it for 3 years without rectification is the work of someone who doesnt give a **** about the rules.

We only "self reported" once the board found out it was going on - they didn't know about it before - we (clubs senior mgmt) were trying to cheat.

 

[HaroldBishop]

IMO Stewart was moved on in order to make a quality attempt at retaining DCE. However, DCE is gunna be a greedy ****, and the club is gunna shed a few quality players (and by the sounds of it lose the core of the successful run they have had in the last 8 seasons) in the process. Manly is a club which is going to look very different in coming years, and IMO struggle to be top of the game

Not sure what you mean by greedy? He's probably the best halfback in the game at club level on form this year, why shouldn't he try and get the best deal for himself? It's a very short career, good on him.

If they keep him and Foran together they have the nucleus of a decent team, just need to build around them. They'll be fine.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

We only "self reported" once the board found out it was going on - they didn't know about it before - we (clubs senior mgmt) were trying to cheat.

but we reported it. Thats the thing. Who cares who did it, the fact that those at the top didnt try to cover it up, like with everything else, those at the helm have never tried to hide anything. So the club was supposed to fix governance issues etc for the NRL to get its satisfaction, however, our head office isnt so second rate IMO. Be it the new board or old.
Broncos did this for 3 years in a row, and continued to do so, and would have, had ex employees not gotten vocal. We owned up, paid our fine, got on with it, copped a spray for Paul **** in the process. Broncos, the darlings, will probably walk away without paying a dime.

Its the same situation, but the fact is, they are doing it for the same reason we did, and evidence seems to be the only reason they will walk away, and honesty (from some) is the only reason that we were fined. I take it this was an opportunity for you to swipe at probably Flanno etc, but this woulda been the work of blokes above him.

Anyway my point is, we probably coulda got away with it, just like Broncos will. Nice guys finish last.

 

[slide rule]

IMO Stewart was moved on in order to make a quality attempt at retaining DCE. However, DCE is gunna be a greedy ****, and the club is gunna shed a few quality players (and by the sounds of it lose the core of the successful run they have had in the last 8 seasons) in the process. Manly is a club which is going to look very different in coming years, and IMO struggle to be top of the game

As good as those blokes are, it might not be such a bad thing for Manly if they move on. They are all around 30. No doubt they still have a bit to offer for the next couple of seasons, but if Manly can move forward with Foran and DCE they will be in a much better place than trying to retain all of these blokes.

The trouble for Manly will be if they get into the situation that Newcastle got themselves into with Johns. Towards the end of his career they gave him an incredibly large contract and the rest of the squad suffered for it. They couldn't win a game without him. The thing Manly has done well over the last couple of years has been to build good teams, rather than just individual players. Even though they have had a lot of great individuals over that time, they could still win when the individuals were out.

 

[hamsy44]

but we reported it. Thats the thing. Who cares who did it, the fact that those at the top didnt try to cover it up, like with everything else, those at the helm have never tried to hide anything. So the club was supposed to fix governance issues etc for the NRL to get its satisfaction, however, our head office isnt so second rate IMO. Be it the new board or old.
Broncos did this for 3 years in a row, and continued to do so, and would have, had ex employees not gotten vocal. We owned up, paid our fine, got on with it, copped a spray for Paul **** in the process. Broncos, the darlings, will probably walk away without paying a dime.

Its the same situation, but the fact is, they are doing it for the same reason we did, and evidence seems to be the only reason they will walk away, and honesty (from some) is the only reason that we were fined. I take it this was an opportunity for you to swipe at probably Flanno etc, but this woulda been the work of blokes above him.

Anyway my point is, we probably coulda got away with it, just like Broncos will. Nice guys finish last.

Not having a swipe at anyone otherwise I would have said so - Broncos will get fined at the end of the year along with all the other cap breaches just like we did. They will cop a $250-300k fine if not more.

The NRL only issues fines once a year for cap breaches unless it is an extraordinary case like the Storm or Dogs.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

Not sure what you mean by greedy? He's probably the best halfback in the game at club level on form this year, why shouldn't he try and get the best deal for himself? It's a very short career, good on him.

If they keep him and Foran together they have the nucleus of a decent team, just need to build around them. They'll be fine.

Its greed. He would already be calling the shots, Stewart gone, probably a call DCE wanted made cos they hate each other. There is no guarantee that DCE will even stay there, the club is shedding players to accommodate him, and could be left with nothing. Like i said before, 3 years ago he threatened to leave if they didnt up his contract for the remaining 4 years of a 5 year 75,000 a year deal that HE had agreed to. Fair enough he is good, and was good then, but sounds to me like he has been calling the shots just like a certain captain that does that at a club we love

 

[slide rule]

Not having a swipe at anyone otherwise I would have said so - Broncos will get fined at the end of the year along with all the other cap breaches just like we did. They will cop a $250-300k fine if not more.

The NRL only issues fines once a year for cap breaches unless it is an extraordinary case like the Storm or Dogs.

The Broncos probably wouldn't even miss that type of money.

 

[hamsy44]

The Broncos probably wouldn't even miss that type of money.

They won't but thems the rules. Every year clubs cop a fine for going over the cap or not reporting - its just the media got wind of this one early - usually the NRL and clubs keep it in house.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

Not having a swipe at anyone otherwise I would have said so - Broncos will get fined at the end of the year along with all the other cap breaches just like we did. They will cop a $250-300k fine if not more.

The NRL only issues fines once a year for cap breaches unless it is an extraordinary case like the Storm or Dogs.

ours (and broncos) are extremely different to the Storm and Dogs. They were rorting it in a way of deliberately paying too much. Most years a few teams will get a fine for going over, it happens.

However, ive read conflicting reports saying the broncos was 350,000 a year for 3 years they were paying, and another saying it was 350,000 all up. One way or another that was a deliberate act because after the first season a rectification was not sort. I guess in Newcastles favour their players just didnt get paid. But we were fined the full amount and IIRC it was because of a sponsorship via a security firm that the payment ceased. What happened in Brisbanes case? How does that massive club lose a 3rd party deal for a player in that capital city? My opinion is, and just speculating. They deliberately paid extra out, and not in relation to a 3rd party payment

 

[CrankyShark]

Penrith is definitely well run now, don't know what the hell is going on at Wests.

I would like to see how Penrith are travelling in about three years, but of the three clubs I was talking about they appear the most remarkable. I isolated Eels, Tigers and Panthers because they lifted themselves from the bottom to being competitive quite quickly.

As for the Tigers, the NRL has taken control of the club, because Wests and Balmain couldn't stop fighting. The NRL should do exactly the same at the Eels. It is another club that is incapable of running itself.

The clubs I was thinking of are Easts moved on Ricketson years ago, Dogs with Ennis, Manly with Stewart. Has to be done unfortunately. I know Manly has issues at board level but their footy dept seems to be run well.

The Roosters and Canterbury are good examples. I'm not convinced Manly is being well run at the moment. The players seem to be in control and the Stewart situation could see them as spoon contenders in short time if they don't manage their buttons a bit better.

 

[sharkyboy]

Its greed. He would already be calling the shots, Stewart gone, probably a call DCE wanted made cos they hate each other. There is no guarantee that DCE will even stay there, the club is shedding players to accommodate him, and could be left with nothing. Like i said before, 3 years ago he threatened to leave if they didnt up his contract for the remaining 4 years of a 5 year 75,000 a year deal that HE had agreed to. Fair enough he is good, and was good then, but sounds to me like he has been calling the shots just like a certain captain that does that at a club we love

Yep, I think people seem to underestimate the rumours that we hear around clubs and players. A lot of people seem to think the rumours surrounding DCE and players not liking him are BS, but as we know all too well, we have similar player power issues in our own squad and we only believe them because we have such a vested interest in cronulla, and we don't get too many inside scoops surrounding Manly.

Situations may be different, but the issue remains, players calling shots are an issue but it seems to only be getting worse.

 

[BlackWhiteBlue]

They won't but thems the rules. Every year clubs cop a fine for going over the cap or not reporting - its just the media got wind of this one early - usually the NRL and clubs keep it in house.

a few years ago teams got fined (i think we got about a 20,000 fine), and i think there was 9 or 10 in the one season. And this might be the cause for a luxury cap type system. You are allowed like 200k to go over, but if you go that 200k over you have to disperse 200k on top of that evenly between the other teams. Meaning if you can afford 200, you have to afford 400.

 

[snowman]

i hope we get the spoon this year, we deserve it

in fact, we deserve this more than a premiership... maybe this year will wake our club up