Sevshark
Great White
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2021
- Messages
- 3,575
- Reaction score
- 2,439
I keep pressing play but nothing's happening
Official Ronaldo Mulitalo
- Thread starter Mark^Bastard
- Start date
Shortfin Mako
Bull Shark
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2020
- Messages
- 1,612
- Reaction score
- 675
I love his passion.
HaroldBishop
Megalodon
Haha I think you need to have a lie down mate.
Sevshark
Great White
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2021
- Messages
- 3,575
- Reaction score
- 2,439
This one was on purpose, let's be honest haha
Gards
Jaws
This is good discussion and the below shouldn't be taken as argumentative but instead contributory as thoughts meet my fingers and I think more broadly of the subject. I think coming in off the wing in defense is a pet peeve of many fans (including myself) and is usually just put down to lack of trust or communication or just a bad read or a bad player.
For sure those things can be factors but I think there is more to it. While we often feel the winger should just stay out close to his man and wait for his inside support what if that inside support is slow coming across or a bunch of Matt Moylans that can't make a tackle on a charging second rower or centre without help.
Maybe the attacking side just put on a really clever play that took the defense by surprise.
I'm not saying what anyone said above is right or wrong (either generally speaking or specifically this try) but what Burg said about a wingers job was interesting to me.
In theory a winger is always too far in field otherwise try's would never be scored outside them in the corner and if defensive decisions were always correct and perfectly executed there would be no trys scored in a game.
That's what alot of the offense side of rugby league isn't it, running shapes and plays at pace to put a decision to a defender in as little time as possible and have them take the wrong option or do something in that moment to make it the wrong option for them even if the defense read it well.
When we score a try like that we think wow what a well executed play from our halves and edge, we don't immediately jump to the assumption hey that opposition defender had a stinker there and let us over. No we put a play together to make that happen and make the defense look inferior.
These guys are professional specialist wingers, experts in that position that are paid to play there and train all week amongst other pro's and under professional coaches that train and develop defensive structures and practice them. These guys and their coaches should know best on what is and isn't the right approach to defending out wide. There is also fatigue to content with.
Now think of how many trys are scored in the corners after wingers jam in on a ball carrier or receiver each round. It's bucket loads. But there isn't some outburst of coaches making drastic selection and structural overhauls to address this epidemic of localised try scoring. Trys are worked and scored all over the pitch for various reasons, it's part of the game.
Somewhere along the defensive line 1 or more defenders is going to get done over at some point.
When I think back to this Raiders try and watched it a few times I recall Ronnie doing his best to cover 2 spaces and 2 threats as 1 person trying to make a decision in half a second.
Simply staying planted on his wing or pushing out wide in that time for a ball receiver to stroll through on the inside might have made Ronnie look casual or shirking his duties and potentially resulted embarrassingly in a hand not even being laid on any raiders attacker and punters saying he should have tried to do something.
But let's take this to the extreme and ensure a winger never leaves his corner post defending his line. Problem solved, there are going to be next to no try's scored in that corner anymore barring a ball carrier steam rolling straight over the winger.
But a few metres inside the corner where a winger stands there are going to be alot of trys scored now. So let's move the centre further out and instruct him not to leave that patch of grass, well now the trys are going to be coming through the area of the second row and so forth. Defense is about sliding and knowing when to stand your ground and about trying to do it as a cohesive unit.
But there are bodies and a ball in motion and mismatch of player sizes, strength and ability so at some point a gap or weakness is going to get exposed and taken advantage of. If there wasn't then players would come up with creative ways to do it or the rules would be changed to facilitate it. A rugby league defense can be a bit like a line of Dominoes or a house of cards, when one goes down....
I played mostly wing in my Rugby League days (gun half in the non tackle variations FYI). I don't consider myself a bad player, I had ability and could do the Rugby League things. But at that age I hadn't filled out while I had decent height lost out to alot of players on muscle mass and pure size/weight. Especially up against the Polynesian lads of similar age.
So I wouldn't say defending head on was the most pleasant thing for me against big centres or forwards but my low down tackle technique was solid so the good ol grass cutter was how I brought down most big bodies. It wasn't really about the wrestle, 4 men in or turning players over and flopping back then either, more a case of stop their progress, release them and get to marker or back in the line. This was late 90's / early 2000's footy.
When I think back to these days defending on the wing did I sometimes jam in on an attacker leaving my short side wing open resulting in a try scored in the corner? Yes I did.
I certainly did not make that decision because I wanted a try scored on our team, I was trying to stop a try. Whatever went through my head at that moment it was that I needed to come in right now to shut this down and help out my inside defenders.
Being a casual/amateur player have no doubt I at times did the wrong thing, made the wrong call, misread the situation, didn't make good enough contact but I also reckon other times I was justified and a try was prob gunna get scored on us anyway.
Coaches/family friends ect would occasionally say things like don't come in off your wing but they wouldn't really explore or address WHY I came in off my wing in that particualr situation and how to better handle that - it was more a blanket statement. Yet professionally NRL wingers do it all the bloody time.
I doubt they went and talked to my centre about it either.
I feel better about wingers jamming in now, thank you SF (and Burg)
For sure those things can be factors but I think there is more to it. While we often feel the winger should just stay out close to his man and wait for his inside support what if that inside support is slow coming across or a bunch of Matt Moylans that can't make a tackle on a charging second rower or centre without help.
Maybe the attacking side just put on a really clever play that took the defense by surprise.
I'm not saying what anyone said above is right or wrong (either generally speaking or specifically this try) but what Burg said about a wingers job was interesting to me.
In theory a winger is always too far in field otherwise try's would never be scored outside them in the corner and if defensive decisions were always correct and perfectly executed there would be no trys scored in a game.
That's what alot of the offense side of rugby league isn't it, running shapes and plays at pace to put a decision to a defender in as little time as possible and have them take the wrong option or do something in that moment to make it the wrong option for them even if the defense read it well.
When we score a try like that we think wow what a well executed play from our halves and edge, we don't immediately jump to the assumption hey that opposition defender had a stinker there and let us over. No we put a play together to make that happen and make the defense look inferior.
These guys are professional specialist wingers, experts in that position that are paid to play there and train all week amongst other pro's and under professional coaches that train and develop defensive structures and practice them. These guys and their coaches should know best on what is and isn't the right approach to defending out wide. There is also fatigue to content with.
Now think of how many trys are scored in the corners after wingers jam in on a ball carrier or receiver each round. It's bucket loads. But there isn't some outburst of coaches making drastic selection and structural overhauls to address this epidemic of localised try scoring. Trys are worked and scored all over the pitch for various reasons, it's part of the game.
Somewhere along the defensive line 1 or more defenders is going to get done over at some point.
When I think back to this Raiders try and watched it a few times I recall Ronnie doing his best to cover 2 spaces and 2 threats as 1 person trying to make a decision in half a second.
Simply staying planted on his wing or pushing out wide in that time for a ball receiver to stroll through on the inside might have made Ronnie look casual or shirking his duties and potentially resulted embarrassingly in a hand not even being laid on any raiders attacker and punters saying he should have tried to do something.
But let's take this to the extreme and ensure a winger never leaves his corner post defending his line. Problem solved, there are going to be next to no try's scored in that corner anymore barring a ball carrier steam rolling straight over the winger.
But a few metres inside the corner where a winger stands there are going to be alot of trys scored now. So let's move the centre further out and instruct him not to leave that patch of grass, well now the trys are going to be coming through the area of the second row and so forth. Defense is about sliding and knowing when to stand your ground and about trying to do it as a cohesive unit.
But there are bodies and a ball in motion and mismatch of player sizes, strength and ability so at some point a gap or weakness is going to get exposed and taken advantage of. If there wasn't then players would come up with creative ways to do it or the rules would be changed to facilitate it. A rugby league defense can be a bit like a line of Dominoes or a house of cards, when one goes down....
I played mostly wing in my Rugby League days (gun half in the non tackle variations FYI). I don't consider myself a bad player, I had ability and could do the Rugby League things. But at that age I hadn't filled out while I had decent height lost out to alot of players on muscle mass and pure size/weight. Especially up against the Polynesian lads of similar age.
So I wouldn't say defending head on was the most pleasant thing for me against big centres or forwards but my low down tackle technique was solid so the good ol grass cutter was how I brought down most big bodies. It wasn't really about the wrestle, 4 men in or turning players over and flopping back then either, more a case of stop their progress, release them and get to marker or back in the line. This was late 90's / early 2000's footy.
When I think back to these days defending on the wing did I sometimes jam in on an attacker leaving my short side wing open resulting in a try scored in the corner? Yes I did.
I certainly did not make that decision because I wanted a try scored on our team, I was trying to stop a try. Whatever went through my head at that moment it was that I needed to come in right now to shut this down and help out my inside defenders.
Being a casual/amateur player have no doubt I at times did the wrong thing, made the wrong call, misread the situation, didn't make good enough contact but I also reckon other times I was justified and a try was prob gunna get scored on us anyway.
Coaches/family friends ect would occasionally say things like don't come in off your wing but they wouldn't really explore or address WHY I came in off my wing in that particualr situation and how to better handle that - it was more a blanket statement. Yet professionally NRL wingers do it all the bloody time.
I doubt they went and talked to my centre about it either.
I feel better about wingers jamming in now, thank you SF (and Burg)
Last edited:
HaroldBishop
Megalodon
Gards
Jaws
In short
It's about my utter despise for certain posters on here and guess who's top of the list
Sums up my sex life!
The hardest spot to defend, IMO, is the three man - this is where a lot of plays target to force a decision. Usually putting them in two minds between two players (one being the bigger & stronger second rower).
Often though the man who wears the consequences of how well this is dealt with is the winger.
I played hooker young and then second row/lock through teens. But when first in seniors I was moved to wing because I was decently fast and definitely smaller than most of the adults playing. Used to playing hooker and forwards I loved an early set scoot or run - I was a good yardage winger before they were the rage haha
I remember one game early on playing wing coach had insisted I just mark my man, hold the sideline and mark your winger. Watched two tries to centre walk through yawning gaps while I had my winger well covered. Next time it happened I came in and their half threw the long ball to my unmarked opposite winger and it went over his head and out. The next time another dodgy pass and he dropped it.
The disaster of why we kept getting our line pummelled and having 2 on 1s aside that game locked in for me that I'm always going to be better off defending in if it's a 2 on 1.
There is also an alternate defending shape where either the winger of centre shoots in hard (to force an early decision or turn play back infield) and it becomes the fullbacks job to slide and defend the attacking winger. With good communication you can mix things up and throw this one in there. Sharks don't do it as much as some teams.
Often though the man who wears the consequences of how well this is dealt with is the winger.
I played hooker young and then second row/lock through teens. But when first in seniors I was moved to wing because I was decently fast and definitely smaller than most of the adults playing. Used to playing hooker and forwards I loved an early set scoot or run - I was a good yardage winger before they were the rage haha
I remember one game early on playing wing coach had insisted I just mark my man, hold the sideline and mark your winger. Watched two tries to centre walk through yawning gaps while I had my winger well covered. Next time it happened I came in and their half threw the long ball to my unmarked opposite winger and it went over his head and out. The next time another dodgy pass and he dropped it.
The disaster of why we kept getting our line pummelled and having 2 on 1s aside that game locked in for me that I'm always going to be better off defending in if it's a 2 on 1.
There is also an alternate defending shape where either the winger of centre shoots in hard (to force an early decision or turn play back infield) and it becomes the fullbacks job to slide and defend the attacking winger. With good communication you can mix things up and throw this one in there. Sharks don't do it as much as some teams.
Sevshark
Great White
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2021
- Messages
- 3,575
- Reaction score
- 2,439
I can't be bothered to read it either but in the spirit of the internet I've decided to feel attacked
egg
Jaws
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 12,845
- Reaction score
- 1,035
No Worries
This is good discussion and the below shouldn't be taken as argumentative .
I feel better about wingers jamming in now, thank you SF (and Burg) .
egg
Jaws
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2010
- Messages
- 12,845
- Reaction score
- 1,035
Hi all ,
I wasn't taking potshots at anyone .
Just thought it a bit amusing to summarise the the opening and closing paragraphs from Gard's explanation/reply
BurgoShark
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 12,868
- Reaction score
- 4,097
This is all we need.
If you can't tell, and I can't tell, and bort can't tell... all with the benefit of a bird's eye view../ how do you expect Ronnie to 100% know in a split second at ground level? He read that Trindall was beaten and acted on that. End of story. It happens as a result of something inside. It's not a winger running in to make a crazy play outside the system.
Could he have maybe played it better? Sure. Would it have made a difference? Maybe
Sevshark
Great White
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2021
- Messages
- 3,575
- Reaction score
- 2,439
I'm glad we could all come together as a team, work together, and decide that it was Daniel Holdsworth's fault.
And after I was just talking him up the other day
BurgoShark
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 12,868
- Reaction score
- 4,097
Defensive strategies have also evolved over time.
I played at a time when it was only sliding. Winger being beaten on the outside meant he was too far infield or he just got beaten 1 on 1.
It’s different now though. It’s push/release, push/release (like sliding D) until someone can’t release and the outside men have to make a decision and adjust.
People still think it works like it did before though. I was taught edge defence by 3 former international centres/wingers. Guys in the same session were blown away because they had been teaching their wingers to stay in a channel (which is very easy to teach, but won’t work against good teams). They had no idea of the massive role the winger plays in modern defence.
Must be nice, I was borderline taught nothing haha
Get told run here or do this but never why
NRL player and a gun Q Cup player were a bit better in seniors than what I got through juniors, but still far from great, especially on an individual basis. And Josh Rogers’ dad was decent but still was mostly just what to do without much depth.
I have way better understanding now than the vast majority of time I was playing (or I do t, depending on where people land with my arguing haha)
Tbf not like I was a sponge of a student. All about the beers.