NRL Round 24, 2011: Cronulla Sutherland Sharks v Sydney Roosters, 7:30pm Sat 20 Aug @ SFS

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I accept that during any given match that refereeing decisions will sometimes be unfavourable or favourable. That on some occasions there will be a bit more of the former than the latter. Certainly in this game the refereeing was lopsidedly against us particularly in regards to JWH.

Could we have controlled that though? Did any amount of complaining by Gallen on the field and Flanagan off the field alter this reality? Could it? No. Were they morally in the right? Yes. Did it achieve anything? No. We're not trading in the ideal world, we're dealing in the real world.

Rafael Nadal in his loss to Ferrer in the AO was asked three or four times to blame his knee injury for that outcome. He refused to remotely buy into it (he looked as if he wanted to throttle the journos) and gave unqualified credit to the opponent Ferrer for having outplayed him. Frankly his injury gave him no chance of victory. However, by placing a 100% onus on himself and what he could control he empowered himself to take responsibility and alter that outcome to the umpteenth of his ability (exercising his free will).

Apparently his uncle Tony had it drilled into him to always be humble. That's why he is what he is. When he got knocked out of the first round of Wimbledon he could have submitted in ease to the line that he was a clay/hard-court player who couldn't excel on grass. However, he went away and altered his serve to make it more powerful so he could obtain more cheap points, served and volleyed more often, forced himself to play on the baseline to be more aggressive instead of being deep and defensive in amongst other things. The next year he went and made the Final and the year after won the Championship.

Enter Safin and Federer. The former after continuing his failure at Wimbledon (knocked out in the 1st Rnd) blamed the stupid grass and said what an awful surface it was. The latter when he lost to Berdych in the quarters blamed everything but himself not to mention his sulk in the AO. It's widely acknowledge that he has to alter his game to have a chance of turning around his average record against Nadal. Up to this point he has not.

What does this all have to do with the Sharks in Gallen and Flanagan. By blaming refereeing decisions, luck or fate we dis-empower ourselves. We begin to feel comfort with the concept that we can't possibly win because things are against us, the NRL has it in for us or luck simply won't favour us. We lose our free-will (which we readily possess) and submit to these "inevitabilities". The sooner we take the attitude that come what may, no matter the obstacles that are put in front of us that we'll do whatever it takes and we'll do whatever within our power we can do to still win then we will benefit greatly. We could have played much better in that last 20mins and have won comfortably. That was within our control. That should be the absolute and only focus for the boys this week.

I don't want Gallen and Flanagan or anyone else to ever blame refereeing decisions ever again even if they don't favour us. To blame absolutely nothing but what we could do but did not do. That when we concede a rough penalty to accept it and tell the boys to double up because they won't get past us. That when the head hunters come at us to tell them to take a harder hit because we'll never succumb to their level. That in all matters on the Rugby League field we'll always play hard and fair, with virtue and integrity. Build character in your men Paul and they follow you and we will win a lot more games than we currently have.

Nice Post HD.....I agree entirely with what you have said here. While some may cry out we were unlucky at this point, and given a bad call at that point, the fact that remains is this: The team that knuckles down and gets the simple things right will create create their own luck through momentum and confidence in their own abilities - This is why I have admiration for the way Storm, Broncos and Dragons play as a "unit"....they may not have the individual standout flair of a Benji Marshall or a Jonathon Thurston or Chris Sandow but they work as a team and everyone steps up. There is no hesitation or "deer in the headlights" feeling when something doesn't quite go to plan - they get over it and on with the job, and they certainly don't fold when their best player (Gallen) has to leave the field......
 

HrvatskaDomovino

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Thanks for acknowledgment. You elaborated on some points which I was going to raise elsewhere but I'll post it here. You nailed it on the head................


Terry Lamb made a career merely out of being present otherwise known as support play or backing-up. Why is it the case that in the majority of instances in the last three years when Tupou has had his hands free ready for an offload that he's been unable to so? Because no one is present. In fact, no one feels the onus of responsibility to be present. No one is creating an offload for him. Why has Tagataese failed to have the majority of his line-breaks finished off? No one is creating a pass for him. Pomeroy creates his tries by being present; by chasing the hardest. Those things don't just happen to him whilst his standing around. Why do Hindmarsh, Myles and Crocker always mop up on the line-breaks and no one else? Every other player shifts it off and leaves them to do the dirty work.

The game applies far to much emphasis on the ball-carrier or the halves 'creating' the play. How much pressure was zeroed-in on Noddy at the Sharks to create something out of his back side when all the others provided him with no options meaning he had to force things. The onus has to be on every one of the 17 guys who are listed to be proactive, to be other-centric and think how they can best position themselves for the ball carrier in the development of any given play. There has to be a constancy of effort on every play, every pass, on every line-break whether offensive or defensive in orientation. The players need to bursting through holes left, right and centre providing options for the person with the ball in hand (primarily the play-makers).

As of the five game losing streak (excepting the Roosters game) we've had 12 players on their heels completely disinterested whilst the one guy hits it up. We've had people who not until the third play have bothered to get onside. The reason we had the team pushing-up, having a go in the streak and the Panthers game was because we were in the mood, in a good place. We've got to stop making it a 'feeling' and make it our culture.
 

ABshark

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Thanks for acknowledgment. You elaborated on some points which I was going to raise elsewhere but I'll post it here. You nailed it on the head................

Terry Lamb made a career merely out of being present otherwise known as support play or backing-up. Why is it the case that in the majority of instances in the last three years when Tupou has had his hands free ready for an offload that he's been unable to so? Because no one is present. In fact, no one feels the onus of responsibility to be present. No one is creating an offload for him. Why has Tagataese failed to have the majority of his line-breaks finished off? No one is creating a pass for him. Pomeroy creates his tries by being present; by chasing the hardest. Those things don't just happen to him whilst his standing around. Why do Hindmarsh, Myles and Crocker always mop up on the line-breaks and no one else? Every other player shifts it off and leaves them to do the dirty work.

The game applies far to much emphasis on the ball-carrier or the halves 'creating' the play. How much pressure was zeroed-in on Noddy at the Sharks to create something out of his back side when all the others provided him with no options meaning he had to force things. The onus has to be on every one of the 17 guys who are listed to be proactive, to be other-centric and think how they can best position themselves for the ball carrier in the development of any given play. There has to be a constancy of effort on every play, every pass, on every line-break whether offensive or defensive in orientation. The players need to bursting through holes left, right and centre providing options for the person with the ball in hand (primarily the play-makers).

As of the five game losing streak (excepting the Roosters game) we've had 12 players on their heels completely disinterested whilst the one guy hits it up. We've had people who not until the third play have bothered to get onside. The reason we had the team pushing-up, having a go in the streak and the Panthers game was because we were in the mood, in a good place. We've got to stop making it a 'feeling' and make it our culture.

I disagree with a lot of that HD. Taga has flat out blown most of his linebreaks by not passing to support- not the worst thing to do because at least we keep the ball, but something to work on in the offseason. If you watch Townsend you'll notice that he has the habit of lurking around his forwards waiting for the offload- he's made a number of half breaks because of it and as he gets more experienced and physically up to first grade those breaks will start to come. Kelly also has the knack of creating from second phase play as we saw against the Panthers for instance.

And Noddy... the only options Noddy ever wanted were crash line runners who could take the ball while they were getting belted. He rarely gave anyone else an opportunity to do anything with the ball.

That said, a glaring deficiency of this squad during the Ricky Stuart era (or at least post '08) has been the lack of hole runners. Tupou is not a hole runner, and neither is Gal- he actually looks for contact so he can take them on physically up high. Smith isn't either really, though he plays smarter than the other two. However, with the introdctuction of Tagataese, Bukuya and Frizell, (plus Pomeroy learning to run a hard outside-in angle) we have some good edge options for our halves. That is an area that *should* improve next season.

Also, I disagree that there has been no support play through the ruck- that has been a standout feature of Flano's coaching this year. He has got the big boys using their hands and challenging the line by running together. How many times has Smith put Taga in a hole since he's arrived? I agree it hasn't happened enough, but it has happened and that's a start at least.

That said, you are utterly correct about the overemphasis on the ball players putting ball runners in holes for points. My guess is that its come about as a result of coaches wanting (and being expected to have) more and more control over what happens out on the field. Its pretty hard to plan for what happens after two offloads are thrown. I seem to remember that one of the old RL sages- maybe Gibson- said that the game of RL was about possession and never dying with the ball.

Anyway, I suppose my point is similar to the one I was just trying to frame in a different thread. We want it all to happen now, but it simply won't- because it can't. The team is full of rookies. The coach is a rookie. We're short on leadership. Our best halves combination is yet to take the field this year. We have one, maybe two genuine class players. The checklist of things to work on is sooooo long- get Townsend straightening the attack when he receives the ball like he was when he came in to first grade, improve Graham's one-on-one defense, get Gardner's cleanup work and goal line tackling to be more consistent, get Fifita to run straighter early in the tackle count, get Pomeroy running the outside-in line consistently, get Frizell comfortable in first grade, get Gal to trust his halves, develop/sign some strike in the 3/4 line, ingrain a culture of 80 minute performances, develop Bukuya's passing/offloading game... and so on. It will take time to get where we want to go, but it will happen- there are the makings of a very, very good side there. We just need to hang in there.


What does this all have to do with the Sharks in Gallen and Flanagan. By blaming refereeing decisions, luck or fate we dis-empower ourselves. We begin to feel comfort with the concept that we can't possibly win because things are against us, the NRL has it in for us or luck simply won't favour us. We lose our free-will (which we readily possess) and submit to these "inevitabilities". The sooner we take the attitude that come what may, no matter the obstacles that are put in front of us that we'll do whatever it takes and we'll do whatever within our power we can do to still win then we will benefit greatly. We could have played much better in that last 20mins and have won comfortably. That was within our control. That should be the absolute and only focus for the boys this week.

I don't want Gallen and Flanagan or anyone else to ever blame refereeing decisions ever again even if they don't favour us. To blame absolutely nothing but what we could do but did not do. That when we concede a rough penalty to accept it and tell the boys to double up because they won't get past us. That when the head hunters come at us to tell them to take a harder hit because we'll never succumb to their level. That in all matters on the Rugby League field we'll always play hard and fair, with virtue and integrity. Build character in your men Paul and they follow you and we will win a lot more games than we currently have.

But this I agree with entirely HD. A Wayne Bennett-ism is that he reckons none of his sides have ever lost a game purely because of a refereeing decision. That's because there are always other opportunities to win the match.

In my book, a winner doesn't complain after the fact. What good does it do (except perhaps to take some media scrutiny of your team)? A winner just admits he got beaten, goes away and works on what needs to be fixed so that the likelihood of it ever happening again is minimized. In fact, to me complaining usually indicates that deep down the person was ready to lose- they may even have expected it.

I hate criticizing Gal because of all he is, but am starting to feel more and more and more that he is a bloke who hates losing rather than one who loves winning. To me there's a world of difference there. I don't blame Gal- I blame Ricky Stuart's excuse driven mindset and the historical culture of our Club, but until there is an attitude shift in terms of understanding what it takes to win then I think it will be hard to see us take that ultimate step, particularly when it comes down to the big games.
 

fitz

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I'm loving this thread at the moment.

Intelligent and reasoned discussion that both engages and embraces a range of viewpoints but at the same time is not hysterical and aggressively adversarial.

I'm impressed!
 

HrvatskaDomovino

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I disagree with a lot of that HD. Taga has flat out blown most of his linebreaks by not passing to support- not the worst thing to do because at least we keep the ball, but something to work on in the offseason. If you watch Townsend you'll notice that he has the habit of lurking around his forwards waiting for the offload- he's made a number of half breaks because of it and as he gets more experienced and physically up to first grade those breaks will start to come. Kelly also has the knack of creating from second phase play as we saw against the Panthers for instance.

As someone said if Merritt was on the back end of those line-breaks would they be converted into tries? I think very little has had to with him holding the ball. The others have to create the pass for him.

And Noddy... the only options Noddy ever wanted were crash line runners who could take the ball while they were getting belted. He rarely gave anyone else an opportunity to do anything with the ball.

One qualm. Noddy was outstanding in the back half of 2002 and for the first half of 2005 season. In addition, he excelled in his first year at the Bulldogs. Those things you describe weren't a permanent feature of his play throughout his career. I'd ask was Noddy a product of his environment? IMO yes.

That said, a glaring deficiency of this squad during the Ricky Stuart era (or at least post '08) has been the lack of hole runners. Tupou is not a hole runner, and neither is Gal- he actually looks for contact so he can take them on physically up high. Smith isn't either really, though he plays smarter than the other two. However, with the introdctuction of Tagataese, Bukuya and Frizell, (plus Pomeroy learning to run a hard outside-in angle) we have some good edge options for our halves. That is an area that *should* improve next season.

Also, I disagree that there has been no support play through the ruck- that has been a standout feature of Flano's coaching this year. He has got the big boys using their hands and challenging the line by running together. How many times has Smith put Taga in a hole since he's arrived? I agree it hasn't happened enough, but it has happened and that's a start at least.

That said, you are utterly correct about the overemphasis on the ball players putting ball runners in holes for points. My guess is that its come about as a result of coaches wanting (and being expected to have) more and more control over what happens out on the field. Its pretty hard to plan for what happens after two offloads are thrown. I seem to remember that one of the old RL sages- maybe Gibson- said that the game of RL was about possession and never dying with the ball.

I think we may well agree but might be lost in translation.

In that respect we've been inconsistent to say the least. Compare broadly our current five game losing streak with the fours wins prior to that. The former we've been flat-footed and reactive the latter we pushed-up, backed-up and were proactive. I'm accommodating of that nonetheless as we're a developing team. However, watch the first try in the Panthers game: Morris, Smith and Kelly all made second efforts in supporting the ball-carrier. The first try that Kelly scored he had J.Smith again on his inside running the hole selling his dummy. The Gardner try previous to it had Kelly and B.Wright backing up in support and Mannah ran the hole for his try. In all these instances players were proactive, other-centric and placing themselves in positions where they were creating passes through their presence. A lot of those players would not be considered hole-runners either. The reason we had such an attitude against the Panthers IMO was because we'd been liberated mentally off the back of the Dragons game and in much the same respect were devastated as a result of the Manly game.

I agree with another poster's sentiment that though we may have won the same amount of games as last year we've improved our play from the Stuart era. I agree with that assessment as you yourself have also stated.

Re: passing before the line as I stated in the Shane Flanagan thread that could be improved but certainly Douglas and Gallen have developed that aspect of their games this season.

Anyway, I suppose my point is similar to the one I was just trying to frame in a different thread. We want it all to happen now, but it simply won't- because it can't. The team is full of rookies. The coach is a rookie. We're short on leadership. Our best halves combination is yet to take the field this year. We have one, maybe two genuine class players. The checklist of things to work on is sooooo long- get Townsend straightening the attack when he receives the ball like he was when he came in to first grade, improve Graham's one-on-one defense, get Gardner's cleanup work and goal line tackling to be more consistent, get Fifita to run straighter early in the tackle count, get Pomeroy running the outside-in line consistently, get Frizell comfortable in first grade, get Gal to trust his halves, develop/sign some strike in the 3/4 line, ingrain a culture of 80 minute performances, develop Bukuya's passing/offloading game... and so on. It will take time to get where we want to go, but it will happen- there are the makings of a very, very good side there. We just need to hang in there.

I don't disagree with that at all and have stated as much elsewhere. :good:

But this I agree with entirely HD. A Wayne Bennett-ism is that he reckons none of his sides have ever lost a game purely because of a refereeing decision. That's because there are always other opportunities to win the match.

In my book, a winner doesn't complain after the fact. What good does it do (except perhaps to take some media scrutiny of your team)? A winner just admits he got beaten, goes away and works on what needs to be fixed so that the likelihood of it ever happening again is minimized. In fact, to me complaining usually indicates that deep down the person was ready to lose- they may even have expected it.

I hate criticizing Gal because of all he is, but am starting to feel more and more and more that he is a bloke who hates losing rather than one who loves winning. To me there's a world of difference there. I don't blame Gal- I blame Ricky Stuart's excuse driven mindset and the historical culture of our Club, but until there is an attitude shift in terms of understanding what it takes to win then I think it will be hard to see us take that ultimate step, particularly when it comes down to the big games.

Agreed. He was better earlier in the season but then he got involved with Origin and on each of those occasions that NSW lost he primarily blamed the refereeing. Sticky doesn't bring out the best in him in that regard. Thereafter that culture of excuse-making has seemed to have continued when he has captained the Sharks.

To Gal's credit he has matured significantly in the past couple of years. Hopefully an improvement in this aspect of the game can filter down to him somehow so he may further mature as a leader.
 
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chikenhawk

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Dont know if this has already been posted -

What is the proccess for going to the video referee for high tackles? Could there have been more penalties awarded due to high shots in the Roosters-Sharks game?

Referees will blow a penalty when a defender makes clear contact with the attacking player’s head. When the video referee looks at these incidents, there must be clear evidence that a defender has made contact with the head and it needs to be a reportable offence for the video referee to intervene. If there is no clear evidence from replays that a defender has collected the attacking player’s head, it is simply play-on.

Clearly when an incident is the subject of a charge we cannot comment until the matter is resolved by the judiciary process. As a general principle a referee or video referee will use the ‘report system’ where they believe there is some doubt at the severity of an incident, where there may be mitigating factors or where they believe the contact was simply not at a level that would require a send-off. Where a referee or video referee believes the contact is clear and is severe they are instructed to dismiss a player.

Was there an obstruction from Jason Ryles on the line when Jared Waerea-Hargreaves scored for the Roosters against the Sharks?

The try should not have been awarded because there was obstruction from Jason Ryles. The referee ruled that Ryles had been running as a support player and hadn’t impeded the defence, but on video evidence and when we looked at it in the review today, you can see that Ryles gets in front of Waerea-Hargreaves and stops the Sharks from the opportunity to make a tackle.

In the Roosters v Sharks match, did Paul Gallen knock-on before a try was awarded to John Williams late in the first half?

We have looked at this and Paul Gallen knocks the ball on. Initially the ball is stripped out of his hands legally by the Roosters as he is in the process of trying to score a try, but when the ball comes free Gallen attempts to re-gather and his hand touches the ball and promotes it forwards before another Sharks player grounds it. It should have been a 20-metre restart to the Roosters. They got that wrong.


from http://www.nrl.com/official-view-re...l-right/tabid/11010/newsid/64374/default.aspx
 

BurgoShark

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We have looked at this and Paul Gallen knocks the ball on. Initially the ball is stripped out of his hands legally by the Roosters as he is in the process of trying to score a try, but when the ball comes free Gallen attempts to re-gather and his hand touches the ball and promotes it forwards before another Sharks player grounds it. It should have been a 20-metre restart to the Roosters. They got that wrong.
I'm sure the quote is correct chickenhawk, but is this right? If the Roosters strip the ball in goal to save a try doesn't that make it a drop-out?

The other weird decision vs the Roosters was the "kick not traveling 10m". It appeared on TV to have traveled past the line in the air and then come down should of it (from wind blowing it back) which is actually play on. It may be the reply angle, but IMO this was a mistake. It had absolutely no impact on the game - just a quirk of the rule that I thought the refs missed.
 

snowman

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i think the rule on the 10m and blowing the ball back is called unlucky burgers

it has to bounce inside and then go over the 10, or go over and land on the full

its a rule the drum into your head when going for your ref course
 

BurgoShark

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i think the rule on the 10m and blowing the ball back is called unlucky burgers

it has to bounce inside and then go over the 10, or go over and land on the full

its a rule the drum into your head when going for your ref course

unless this has changed recently, the rule is that it has to "travel past the 10m line". Touching the ground or a player is not a requirement. This is actually a scenario (blowing the ball back) which I discussed once with an NRL referee (but this it was probably > 10 years ago).
 

snowman

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then its changed, well, it has in the penrith district competition

i did the ref course when i did the yellow shirt course, and this rule was drummed to us, as was square markers and referee abuse
 

A.Snowden

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unless this has changed recently, the rule is that it has to "travel past the 10m line". Touching the ground or a player is not a requirement. This is actually a scenario (blowing the ball back) which I discussed once with an NRL referee (but this it was probably > 10 years ago).

Pretty certain the ball has to touch the ground over the line
 

Mark^Bastard

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Pretty certain the ball has to touch the ground over the line

I agree with this.

However on a related note, what about when players catch it? If a player leaps into the air and catches it does it change this? A ball that could have gone 10 could be caught short by the defence for example.
 

A.Snowden

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I agree with this.

However on a related note, what about when players catch it? If a player leaps into the air and catches it does it change this? A ball that could have gone 10 could be caught short by the defence for example.

From the nrl.com site, pretty vague

Offences incurring
penalties – kicker –6. A player who kicks off or drops-out shall be penalised if he:
(a) advances in front of the appropriate line before
kicking the ball.
(b) kicks the ball on the full over the touch line, touch
in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
(c) kicks the ball so that it fails to travel at least ten
metres forward in the field of play.
(d) kicks the ball other than in the prescribed
manner.
http://admin.nrl.sportal.net.au/site/_content/document/00000855-source.pdf
 

snowman

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I agree with this.

However on a related note, what about when players catch it? If a player leaps into the air and catches it does it change this? A ball that could have gone 10 could be caught short by the defence for example.

it depends...

if you kick off, and i jump from 43m and catch it before the 10 in the air, then land over the 10, its a penalty

if you kick off to me, and i jump from behind the 10, and catch it inside the 10, its a penalty to you
 
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