Official Dale Finucane

[bort]

Ok, so it’s a coach issue. Dale is largely doing what they want him to do. He certainly hits his knees and elbows quickly at the line, but I doubt his PTB speed is as quick as Williams. Also I think when people say put him at prop, they mean give him less minutes off the bench.

I don’t know, and by that I mean I really don’t.

Pretty much - Finucane playing okay but doesn't look like our highest paid player. Penalties, suspensions and injuries hurt how I feel about him also. I'm not really changing his role much below tbh

I think currently I'd be looking at something like 5 deep depth chart depth of

8 Finucane Rudolf Kaufusi Colquhoun Hazleton
10 BHU Hunt Hazelton Colquhoun Kaufusi
13 McInnes Williams Graham Finucane Colquhoun

For injury obviously everyone moves up a space to fill. 2 highest for each jersey play, plus one other makes last bench spot (most likely someone from the 10 chart). Obviously for players in multiple positions they play wherever they are highest. The one tweak is (especially vs larger packs) I'd still consider starting McInnes in 14, with Williams in 13.

So end up with a fully fit middle of

8 Finucane 10 BHU 13 Williams
14 McInnes 15 Rudolf 16 Hunt 17 Hazleton

Or this weekend
8 Finucane 10 BHU 13 Williams
14 McInnes 15 Kaufusi 16 Hazleton 17 Colquhoun

Little harsh on Graham as he has been okay but I'd prefer another big body, McInnes and Williams can handle lock without a third, and Finucane can sub in there if needed.

 

[The Punisher]

Yeah but people are complaining he has no impact yet want him at prop. Kinda makes no sense.

Yes he doesnt 'bend' the line, but hes still fit as a fiddle, has good work effort and gets decent ptb speed.
Think hed be great for us there, and the simplification of his role will help

 

[BurgoShark]

Just re-watched the first 30 minutes of the game (Finucane's first stint).

First 15 minutes he was very busy. Plenty of strong carries, a good ball for Hunt, and some strong defence.

After the 15 minute mark, the team loses the plot and they go 13 minutes either defending or having rucking it out of their own 20. Finucane is busy in defence, and his next carry is at the 29 minute mark once they manage to hold the ball. Next set he makes a try-saver on Meaney, but Grant scores on the next tackle through 3 guys anyway. End of stint.

If you watched this period and thought Finucane was the problem, you were probably drunk.

 

[BurgoShark]

Pretty much - Finucane playing okay but doesn't look like our highest paid player. Penalties, suspensions and injuries hurt how I feel about him also. I'm not really changing his role much below tbh

I think currently I'd be looking at something like 5 deep depth chart depth of

8 Finucane Rudolf Kaufusi Colquhoun Hazleton
10 BHU Hunt Hazelton Colquhoun Kaufusi
13 McInnes Williams Graham Finucane Colquhoun

For injury obviously everyone moves up a space to fill. 2 highest for each jersey play, plus one other makes last bench spot (most likely someone from the 10 chart). Obviously for players in multiple positions they play wherever they are highest. The one tweak is (especially vs larger packs) I'd still consider starting McInnes in 14, with Williams in 13.

So end up with a fully fit middle of

8 Finucane 10 BHU 13 Williams
14 McInnes 15 Rudolf 16 Hunt 17 Hazleton

Or this weekend
8 Finucane 10 BHU 13 Williams
14 McInnes 15 Kaufusi 16 Hazleton 17 Colquhoun

Little harsh on Graham as he has been okay but I'd prefer another big body, McInnes and Williams can handle lock without a third, and Finucane can sub in there if needed.

That's not how it works. There are no "props" and "locks" in Fitz ball. There are big bodies and workers.

First 20 = 2 big bodies + a worker
Remaining 60 = 2 workers + a big body

This is how it works in all games since Fitz started coaching, except the 2-3 times when there was a late change/withdrawal forcing Finucane and McInnes to both be in the starting line-up, or when in-game injuries/sin-bins force his hand.

You can say that you wouldn't do it that way, but that's what Fitz does 100% of the time if the situation is under his control.

Once you see it this way, it's very easy to understand why there are games where "lesser" players like Hunt or Kaufusi will start ahead of a "better" player like McInnes or Finucane.

It also tells you why Fitz loves Rudolf so much, and has such big wraps on JC. They are the only two players in the top 30 that could conceivably play either role on a given day. Everyone else is one or the other.

 

[bort]

That's not how it works. There are no "props" and "locks" in Fitz ball. There are big bodies and workers.

First 20 = 2 big bodies + a worker
Remaining 60 = 2 workers + a big body

This is how it works in all games since Fitz started coaching, except the 2-3 times when there was a late change/withdrawal forcing Finucane and McInnes to both be in the starting line-up, or when in-game injuries/sin-bins force his hand.

You can say that you wouldn't do it that way, but that's what Fitz does 100% of the time if the situation is under his control.

Once you see it this way, it's very easy to understand why there are games where "lesser" players like Hunt or Kaufusi will often start ahead of a "better" player like McInnes (or some might say Williams).

I am across how Fitz is currently utilising the squad. I'd like to see a little more punch injected throughout the game - even if it was just a 10-15 minutes period where we had a Hazleton and BHU on together with McInnes, instead of Graham/BHU/McInnes.
Doesn't fit with the depth chart but that is how the selections are made and is not a concrete requirement for interchanges.

I don't want to see a game in the balance where we have 2 workers and 1 bigger prop on for an extended period when we could use a bit of an injection of size. If it was working, fine, and is it the middles fault it isn't? Not especially. But sometimes you need to throw some big lads around and try and generate some momentum.
Fitzball seems very sound when things are going to plan, but that keeps not happening to us.

I don't even think mine is substantially different, for the most part I'm just sacking Graham from the starting 17 if we are being honest, and I'd try and find a period I can throw two bigger bodies out there again. Our backs take a lot of workrate off our forwards in attack already so I don't think there'd be too much risk of us gassing out by having slightly less time with a second worker on field.

Whatever **** is on needs to hold the football unless the offload is a sure thing though, Fitzball or bortball

 

[BurgoShark]

I am across how Fitz is currently utilising the squad. I'd like to see a little more punch injected throughout the game - even if it was just a 10-15 minutes period where we had a Hazleton and BHU on together with McInnes, instead of Graham/BHU/McInnes.
Doesn't fit with the depth chart but that is how the selections are made and is not a concrete requirement for interchanges.

I don't want to see a game in the balance where we have 2 workers and 1 bigger prop on for an extended period when we could use a bit of an injection of size. If it was working, fine, and is it the middles fault it isn't? Not especially. But sometimes you need to throw some big lads around and try and generate some momentum.
Fitzball seems very sound when things are going to plan, but that keeps not happening to us.

I don't even think mine is substantially different, for the most part I'm just sacking Graham from the starting 17 if we are being honest, and I'd try and find a period I can throw two bigger bodies out there again. Our backs take a lot of workrate off our forwards in attack already so I don't think there'd be too much risk of us gassing out by having slightly less time with a second worker on field.

Whatever **** is on needs to hold the football unless the offload is a sure thing though, Fitzball or bortball

Yeah - I guess these are the main things I am getting at. There is a lot of criticism of the coaches selections, but he is constantly trying to plug holes due to line-up changes so probably deserves the benefit of the doubt. In any case middles forwards were not the problem in the last two losses.

There is definitely an argument to be made for having Hazelton over Graham on the bench, but that's not on Finucane.

I like the idea of bortball, but it too needs the right personnel, which they might not have atm. Ideal bortball squad for 2024 imo has Colquhoun and Rudolf starting, and every other big middle as a guy you throw out for impact... since both those guys can play that worker role in defence as needed.

Imo Rudolf is a bigger loss than people realise.

I'm also not opposed to Dale playing less minutes, or from the bench. I just don't think people saying "move him to prop" adds much to the conversation. It's not like if he wears #10 he's suddenly going to stop mopping up half breaks or throwing tip-ons.

 

[bort]

Yeah - I guess these are the main things I am getting at. There is a lot of criticism of the coaches selections, but he is constantly trying to plug holes due to line-up changes so probably deserves the benefit of the doubt. In any case middles forwards were not the problem in the last two losses.

There is definitely an argument to be made for having Hazelton over Graham on the bench, but that's not on Finucane.

I like the idea of bortball, but it too needs the right personnel, which they might not have atm. Ideal bortball squad for 2024 imo has Colquhoun and Rudolf starting, and every other big middle as a guy you throw out for impact... since both those guys can play that worker role in defence as needed.

Imo Rudolf is a bigger loss than people realise.

I'm also not opposed to Dale playing less minutes, or from the bench. I just don't think people saying "move him to prop" adds much to the conversation. It's not like if he wears #10 he's suddenly going to stop mopping up half breaks or throwing tip-ons.

I don't mind that starting duo although, form pending, I think I'd still like one of BHU or Hunt. Just to help throw that size into some starting momentum.

Moving Dale to prop for me is more structing it to make use of players available, which involves him starting (he's not blowing me away but he's certainly not actively bad) while making good use of the likes of Cam and Williams who have looked decent lately. And trying to avoid overloading on 'small' middles. Happy for Finucane to still run or pass at prop.

Rudolf was one of our starting/main props for a reason - hoping he comes back strong.

 

[BurgoShark]

I don't mind that starting duo although, form pending, I think I'd still like one of BHU or Hunt. Just to help throw that size into some starting momentum.

Moving Dale to prop for me is more structing it to make use of players available, which involves him starting (he's not blowing me away but he's certainly not actively bad) while making good use of the likes of Cam and Williams who have looked decent lately. And trying to avoid overloading on 'small' middles. Happy for Finucane to still run or pass at prop.

Rudolf was one of our starting/main props for a reason - hoping he comes back strong.

As an aside... like you said, I have a bit more time on my hands now, so I can put a but more effort back in to modelling player workload.

I'm going to adjust the model to reflect the actual possession rate for when the player in question was on the field, based on percentage of ball in play. I'll also expand the model to reflect where the runs are happening on the field, and to include yardage runs from non-middles. I'll also probably look at only including run metres from deliberate attacking plays (e.g. something like Api's try from origin 1 wouldn't count, but a winger returning a kick would).

Since I have to re-watch the game to do this, is there anything else you'd like to see added? It's probably not too much work to collect a bit more data as I go. Any other feedback you have would be handy before I get started too.

 

[bort]

As an aside... like you said, I have a bit more time on my hands now, so I can put a but more effort back in to modelling player workload.

I'm going to adjust the model to reflect the actual possession rate for when the player in question was on the field, based on percentage of ball in play. I'll also expand the model to reflect where the runs are happening on the field, and to include yardage runs from non-middles. I'll also probably look at only including run metres from deliberate attacking plays (e.g. something like Api's try from origin 1 wouldn't count, but a winger returning a kick would).

Since I have to re-watch the game to do this, is there anything else you'd like to see added? It's probably not too much work to collect a bit more data as I go. Any other feedback you have would be handy before I get started too.

I think I'd be interested in a breakdown in errors.

Simple/handling errors, pushed passes in attacking half, pushed passes inside our half. Maybe on watching another category or two jumps out.
Feels like we make a lot of errors pushing passes in our own half.
And made/caused by spine, forwards or backs.

Our completion rate is a massive issue for us currently - I want to know who to blame.

 

[BurgoShark]

I think I'd be interested in a breakdown in errors.

Simple/handling errors, pushed passes in attacking half, pushed passes inside our half. Maybe on watching another category or two jumps out.
Feels like we make a lot of errors pushing passes in our own half.
And made/caused by spine, forwards or backs.

Our completion rate is a massive issue for us currently - I want to know who to blame.

I can do that. It will just take a few games to get a feel for what is good or bad, since comparing to normal completion percentage stats won't mean anything.

I will need to be a bit subjective about what constitutes an error or a completed set. i.e. shift on tackle 4 where the winger dives into the corner and it is called no try is not necessarily an incomplete set imo, and if you get a set restart or a penalty on tackle 1 that isn't really a completed set either.

Also - for errors, getting a finger on a ball in a contested bomb isn't the same as dropping one cold, so I'll measure that too.

Am I recording this on a player by player basis? If so, I'll probably need to assign "half" points for some stuff. Nicho to Katoa on the weekend is one where two people are to blame imo. **** pass, but probably catchable. The Nicho pass to Sifa on the other hand was just a **** pass.

*

Oh - one more. I'm not sure how they calculate run metres in the NRL, but I'm going to use "metres past the advantage line" for most situations excluding kick returns. If/when there is something like a pass hitting the deck 15m behind the advantage line and a winger running it back 10, or one of those "pass it back 15m to a forward in the middle to take a 3m settler" situations, I'll make a judgement call on those ones.

 

[Western Sharkie]

I can do that. It will just take a few games to get a feel for what is good or bad, since comparing to normal completion percentage stats won't mean anything.

I will need to be a bit subjective about what constitutes an error or a completed set. i.e. shift on tackle 4 where the winger dives into the corner and it is called no try is not necessarily an incomplete set imo, and if you get a set restart or a penalty on tackle 1 that isn't really a completed set either.

Also - for errors, getting a finger on a ball in a contested bomb isn't the same as dropping one cold, so I'll measure that too.

Am I recording this on a player by player basis? If so, I'll probably need to assign "half" points for some stuff. Nicho to Katoa on the weekend is one where two people are to blame imo. **** pass, but probably catchable. The Nicho pass to Sifa on the other hand was just a **** pass.

Save sometime to eat and sleep Burgo!

 

[Flanno]

Burgo with time on his hands is very dangerous

 

[BurgoShark]

Save sometime to eat and sleep Burgo!

Over-rated

 

[CHOGM]

Save sometime to eat and sleep Burgo!

Lunch is for wimps

 

[GF78]

We have 2 more years.

Good point, It will not be pretty in 60 odd games time.

 

[Tatus]

That's not how it works. There are no "props" and "locks" in Fitz ball. There are big bodies and workers.

First 20 = 2 big bodies + a worker
Remaining 60 = 2 workers + a big body

This is how it works in all games since Fitz started coaching, except the 2-3 times when there was a late change/withdrawal forcing Finucane and McInnes to both be in the starting line-up, or when in-game injuries/sin-bins force his hand.

You can say that you wouldn't do it that way, but that's what Fitz does 100% of the time if the situation is under his control.

Once you see it this way, it's very easy to understand why there are games where "lesser" players like Hunt or Kaufusi will start ahead of a "better" player like McInnes or Finucane.

It also tells you why Fitz loves Rudolf so much, and has such big wraps on JC. They are the only two players in the top 30 that could conceivably play either role on a given day. Everyone else is one or the other.

How does Trindal work into Fitzball when he comes off the bench?

 

[Western Sharkie]

How does Trindal work into Fitzball when he comes off the bench?

It’s hard to come in off the bench as a Half for 10 mins at the end (exhibit A - Nicho SOO 1)

It is 80 or nothing IMHO

 

[Tatus]

It’s hard to come in off the bench as a Half for 10 mins at the end (exhibit A - Nicho SOO 1)

It is 80 or nothing IMHO

I agree, but he's been on the bench a few times. Just curious of his role when he's on. Assuming worker, but he could be a big body, but some passing hybrid. I have no idea. Cant say I look that in-depth at our rotations.

 

[BurgoShark]

How does Trindal work into Fitzball when he comes off the bench?

Is this the one you meant?

If all goes accord to play he is he is just another worker. If it doesn’t, he can come on and try to make something happen (e.g. 2022 Brisbane game).

 

[apezza]

Is this the one you meant?

If all goes accord to play he is he is just another worker. If it doesn’t, he can come on and try to make something happen (e.g. 2022 Brisbane game).

Maybe if a centre goes down in the 78th minute he can fill in there. At least if we lose we can blame him and say he's not ready for first grade!