Official Dale Finucane

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CHOGM

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The issue for me with this bloke is not about metres, or D, it’s about what a lock is supposed to offer in attack. Offloads, ball playing, line breaks. I think Mciness/Williams would is a better lock combination, leaving Dale at prop.

The game has in that aspect left Dale behind IMO. He simply isn’t dangerous enough.
 
BurgoShark

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CHOGM said:
The issue for me with this bloke is not about metres, or D, it’s about what a lock is supposed to offer in attack. Offloads, ball playing, line breaks. I think Mciness/Williams would is a better lock combination, leaving Dale at prop.

The game has in that aspect left Dale behind IMO. He simply isn’t dangerous enough.
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What you think the lock should offer in attack is likely different than what the coach wants. Fitz-ball isn't about decreeing one guy as the "ball playing lock". It's about having all of the forwards being capable of using the ball. In certain games I'd say Toby and BHU have thrown more passes than McInnes, and been better at it.

The Sharks also use the Yeo/Radley style "lock as first receiver on a shift" less than any other team. They just don't play like that. Their halves float from side to side, their fullback has a pretty set role, and Brailey gets involved as the extra set of hands in the very long shifts if necessary. They don't have a "halfback of the forwards" like some other teams.

No Sharks middles play old school North-South footy, conserving energy and staying near the goal posts. Unless they are in a kick off receiving position, the Sharks are always playing with 3 locks. The jersey number means nothing.

This is also a good reason why the bigger middles tend to play less minutes for the Sharks than for some other teams. They are much busier defensively - more like a lock than a traditional front rower (the 2022 fancy stats thread has a good comparison of Sharks forwards versus some of the bigger-minute middles in the NRL).
 
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BurgoShark said:
What you think the lock should offer in attack is likely different than what the coach wants. Fitz-ball isn't about decreeing one guy as the "ball playing lock". It's about having all of the forwards being capable of using the ball. In certain games I'd say Toby and BHU have thrown more passes than McInnes, and been better at it.

The Sharks also use the Yeo/Radley style "lock as first receiver on a shift" less than any other team. They just don't play like that. Their halves float from side to side, their fullback has a pretty set role, and Brailey gets involved as the extra set of hands in the very long shifts if necessary. They don't have a "halfback of the forwards" like some other teams.

No Sharks middles play old school North-South footy, conserving energy and staying near the goal posts. Unless they are in a kick off receiving position, the Sharks are always playing with 3 locks. The jersey number means nothing.

This is also a good reason why the bigger middles tend to play less minutes for the Sharks than for some other teams. They are much busier defensively - more like a lock than a traditional front rower (the 2022 fancy stats thread has a good comparison of Sharks forwards versus some of the bigger-minute middles in the NRL).
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But does any of that defend what he’s doing in the park. Or I’d argue not doing. Post contact metres, off loads, line breaks, line break assists. When Dale is on, our middle looks the least likely.
 
BurgoShark

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CHOGM said:
But does any of that defend what he’s doing in the park. Or I’d argue not doing. Post contact metres, off loads, line breaks, line break assists. When Dale is on, our middle looks the least likely.
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I'm not trying to defend him. I'm point out that saying "move him to prop" is invalid. He's already playing there most of the time anyway, and if you put #10 on him there will be no change in his role.

As far as PCMs, offloads, etc., all you are doing there is listing things that you would like to see in the stat could for a bloke wearing #13. It says nothing about whether he is actually doing a good job or whether his coach puts any stock in those things. E.g. it is known that in the NRL some coaches encourage players to favour faster play the balls over competing for that extra couple of PCMs.

If you want a defence of Dale... he is a primarily a work rate forward, with a secondary role of creating space for his other middles with his short passing game.

- In terms of work rate, this is measurable, and he is currently performing at comparable levels to what he has been across 2021 with Melbourne and 2022 with Cronulla. He is doing the same amount of work, at the same rate, for the same amount of minutes per game.

- In terms of creating space for his fellow middles, this is more subjective, and if he isn't as effective in that role as he has been previously, it would definitely hurt the go-forward for the team as a whole. This isn't something I've look at in detail, but I know he had some nice short passes in his first stint against Brisbane.

- I think the comments around his discipline (errors and penalties) over the last couple of games are warranted. I think he was a little unlucky on the high tackle after the ball came off the goal post though. He made an effort play and got the timing wrong.
 
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The Punisher

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BurgoShark said:
I'm not trying to defend him. I'm point out that saying "move him to prop" is invalid. He's already playing there most of the time anyway, and if you put #10 on him there will be no change in his role.

As far as PCMs, offloads, etc., all you are doing there is listing things that you would like to see in the stat could for a bloke wearing #13. It says nothing about whether he is actually doing a good job or whether his coach puts any stock in those things. E.g. it is known that in the NRL some coaches encourage players to favour faster play the balls over competing for that extra couple of PCMs.

If you want a defence of Dale... he is a primarily a work rate forward, with a secondary role of creating space for his other middles with his short passing game.

- In terms of work rate, this is measurable, and he is currently performing at comparable levels to what he has been across 2021 with Melbourne and 2022 with Cronulla. He is doing the same amount of work, at the same rate, for the same amount of minutes per game.

- In terms of creating space for his fellow middles, this is more subjective, and if he isn't as effective in that role as he has been previously, it would definitely hurt the go-forward for the team as a whole. This isn't something I've look at in detail, but I know he had some nice short passes in his first stint against Brisbane.

- I think the comments around his discipline (errors and penalties) over the last couple of games are warranted. I think he was a little unlucky on the high tackle after the ball came off the goal post though. He made an effort play and got the timing wrong.
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But moving him to prop, allows McInnes to take the 13 role, improving our attack significantly,
And id prerfer Dale at prop than Kafusi or even Hunt atm
 
HaroldBishop

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The Punisher said:
But moving him to prop, allows McInnes to take the 13 role, improving our attack significantly,
And id prerfer Dale at prop than Kafusi or even Hunt atm
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Yeah but people are complaining he has no impact yet want him at prop. Kinda makes no sense.
 
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BurgoShark said:
I'm not trying to defend him. I'm point out that saying "move him to prop" is invalid. He's already playing there most of the time anyway, and if you put #10 on him there will be no change in his role.

As far as PCMs, offloads, etc., all you are doing there is listing things that you would like to see in the stat could for a bloke wearing #13. It says nothing about whether he is actually doing a good job or whether his coach puts any stock in those things. E.g. it is known that in the NRL some coaches encourage players to favour faster play the balls over competing for that extra couple of PCMs.

If you want a defence of Dale... he is a primarily a work rate forward, with a secondary role of creating space for his other middles with his short passing game.

- In terms of work rate, this is measurable, and he is currently performing at comparable levels to what he has been across 2021 with Melbourne and 2022 with Cronulla. He is doing the same amount of work, at the same rate, for the same amount of minutes per game.

- In terms of creating space for his fellow middles, this is more subjective, and if he isn't as effective in that role as he has been previously, it would definitely hurt the go-forward for the team as a whole. This isn't something I've look at in detail, but I know he had some nice short passes in his first stint against Brisbane.

- I think the comments around his discipline (errors and penalties) over the last couple of games are warranted. I think he was a little unlucky on the high tackle after the ball came off the goal post though. He made an effort play and got the timing wrong.
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Ok, so it’s a coach issue. Dale is largely doing what they want him to do. He certainly hits his knees and elbows quickly at the line, but I doubt his PTB speed is as quick as Williams. Also I think when people say put him at prop, they mean give him less minutes off the bench.

I don’t know, and by that I mean I really don’t.
 
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He hasn't been the same since his suspension last year for the head clash.

I wonder if he has changed his style in defence or is a bit hesitant due to getting suspension. Or maybe just a year older.
 
BurgoShark

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CHOGM said:
Ok, so it’s a coach issue. Dale is largely doing what they want him to do. He certainly hits his knees and elbows quickly at the line, but I doubt his PTB speed is as quick as Williams. Also I think when people say put him at prop, they mean give him less minutes off the bench.

I don’t know, and by that I mean I really don’t.
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I think you might be right here.
 
Sparkles

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apezza said:
He hasn't been the same since his suspension last year for the head clash.

I wonder if he has changed his style in defence or is a bit hesitant due to getting suspension. Or maybe just a year older.
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The Wade Graham defence
 
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