Official Toby Rudolf

Gumby said:

Is that you Toby?

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

made a few more errors, so not exactly but not the 60/40 spliit it ended up

looking at avgs and elite forward will avd 15-17 runs a game but those guys play much bigger minutes, all the usual suspects are there. blake lawrie is a surprise at 15

rudolph comes in at rank 195 for all forward on avg runs at 10 a game

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

made a few more errors, so not exactly but not the 60/40 spliit it ended up

looking at avgs and elite forward will avd 15-17 runs a game but those guys play much bigger minutes, all the usual suspects are there. blake lawrie is a surprise at 15

rudolph comes in at rank 195 for all forward on avg runs at 10 a game

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BurgoShark said:

All per-game averages will heavily favour higher minute players. They are useless unless comparing players who play similar minutes. They also aren’t much use when looking at a player whose minutes within a season have varied wildly (like Toby).

Look at the Sharks other middles who played decent minutes in this game.

BHU 6 runs in 43
Hazelton 5 in 38
Williams 6 in 28

So either they are all pathetic, or this was a game with a) the outside backs did a lot of the yardage work, or b) the Sharks didn’t have much ball… or both.

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BurgoShark said:

All per-game averages (mean) will heavily favour higher minute players. They are useless unless comparing players who play similar minutes. They also aren’t much use when looking at a player whose minutes within a season have varied (like Toby). Sometimes using median works better to give you an accurate reflection imho, since it removes any outliers (median for Toby is 12 runs per game).

Look at the Sharks other middles who played decent minutes in this game.

BHU 6 runs in 43
Hazelton 5 in 38
Williams 6 in 28

So either they are all pathetic, or this was a game with a) the outside backs did a lot of the yardage work, or b) the Sharks didn’t have much ball… or both.

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XGinga said:

Perfect. Toby ran 15 times last week in a game where the team held the ball, had even possession (51-49 sharks way) and when he was on for 52 minutes. EDIT Oh and he made 45 tackles last week over more time so guess he wasn't as tired.
Looks like we have aan elite forward on our hands. Not many of those in the game. Great.

EDIT 2 Show me stats of one of your elite forwards club in a game where possession was like ours today.

Zzzzz

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

Im going with all. All forwards only made 55 runs

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

Klemmer v cowboys 74-0

38 min 11 runs didnt look at tackles cause they couldnt have made to many

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

Im going with all. All forwards only made 55 runs

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• Run metres S400 to K743. Our forwards made more metres per run so output is better here. +1 Sharks
• Tackles S227 to K139. Made nearly 100 more tackles. Glad they got a bit of a breather. +1 Sharks
• Time with Ball S23.28mins K33.30mins. We had less time to make runs. +1 Sharks

Jasonstevenswedgie said:

Klemmer v cowboys 74-0

38 min 11 runs didnt look at tackles cause they couldnt have made to many

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BurgoShark said:

Probably less actually. A forward taking 3-4 steps and then passing to another forward gets counted.

23 tackles in a half of footy. Pathetic

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XGinga said:

Okay Ill play.

First of all, not sure where you are getting 55 runs from. NRL.com has starting forwards & all bench as 40 not inc hooker 6 & 2nd row at 23 so not sure what you included for 55. Either way this looks good for you as my number is lower than yours.

Your right Sharks forwards (starting + whole bench) ran less then Knights at S40 to K87. However I think again looking at things a bit more then just saying oh they didn't run as much as the other team they must be bad is the wrong way to look at this.
Lets look at some other stats of our starting forwards + Bench.

• Run metres S400 to K743. Our forwards made more metres per run so output is better here. +1 Sharks
• Tackles S227 to K139. Made nearly 100 more tackles. Glad they got a bit of a breather. +1 Sharks
• Time with Ball S23.28mins K33.30mins. We had less time to make runs. +1 Sharks

So as you can see, made less runs but output in other areas were much better. Maybe this is the kind of thing that happens when you don't control possession and have less time for your forwards to run the ball.


Great example. Lets looks at things.

NRL.com has Klemmer at 45mins... 11 runs is correct. Gold star.
Your right Tigers only 37% possession compared to our 49%. Klemmer making 11 runs seems good here. Lets look further though.

Looking at play by play of that game on NRL.com. The times when Klemmer was on they had a lot of ball and the ball was in play a lot. Easy to make 11 runs in that time.

First stint is start of game - 20.39
First points are at 14.28 and in that time there were 4 errors (3 to from tigers) and 2 (1 each) set restarts. Tigers also forced a dropout. Game was freeish flowing and not alot of stoppages where he would have made some runs. After first try, Cowboys pretty much scored in straight sets until Klemmer came off at 20.39.
Lets assume he makes 3-4 runs in 14 minutes where ball is about even/slightly Cowboys way and another 0-1 in following 6 minutes when Cowboys had all ball. Going to call it at 4 here.
Compare how much ball we had in Tobys first stint to this.

2nd stint 55.36 - end of game.
Cowboys score 3 more tries but not until 10 mins after Klemmer comes back on at 65.56 and then run next two in quick succession. Couple cowboys errors before scoring so Tigers have the majority ball for around the first 5 mins when he comes on. Assume 2-4 runs here as he has just came back on and it is about even for next 5 until scoring so again assume 2-4 so going to call it 5 for first 10 back on field which brings up to 9. Then rest of game is pretty much Cowboys in control and scoring. Lets say he make 2 run here and we are at 11. Not hard to make 11 runs when your team has the ball while you are on.
Compare to when Toby came back on. FYI Knights score twice in first 5 of him being back on.

During this time he makes 23 tackles and 1 penalty and 1 missed tackle in 45 minutes. I can forgive him for not many tackles seeing as 25 mins of when he was on Tigers had the ball and alot of cowboys tries were through the backs and were playing wide.

Looks like more of a he was on at the right time and looking at the rest of the team there is no one else taking runs off Klemmer here. Backs collectively made 64 runs in 80 mins compared to our tonight 102. Starting forward, 2nd row and bench minus Klemmer made 44 compared to us minus Toby 74. This means Klemmer has a better chance at making these runs then Toby tonight.

Also worth pointing out Tigers had a hooker on the bench so one less player to take runs from him.

So yes Klemmer did run well that night but he was the only one running and played during times where Tigers had the most ball.

Only other forward that made 10+ runs for Tigers that night was Stefano who came off and back on around the same time as Klemmer and had 3 less minutes.

Almost if your forwards are on the field in times where you have the ball more, they are going to run more. Crazy right?

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BurgoShark said:

All per-game averages (mean) will heavily favour higher minute players. They are useless unless comparing players who play similar minutes. They also aren’t much use when looking at a player whose minutes within a season have varied (like Toby). Sometimes using median works better to give you an accurate reflection imho, since it removes any outliers (median for Toby is 12 runs per game).

Look at the Sharks other middles who played decent minutes in this game.

BHU 6 runs in 43
Hazelton 5 in 38
Williams 6 in 28

So either they are all pathetic, or this was a game with a) the outside backs did a lot of the yardage work, or b) the Sharks didn’t have much ball… or both.

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Jasonstevenswedgie said:

sorry toby, didnt realise i would offend you so much

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XGinga said:

Mate trust me with these **** takes you couldn't offend me. I have a higher opinion of myself.

Just sick of the mental gymnastic people do to bag out a player on here or to put blame on a player for a loss when it's the complete opposite.
Decided it was time to show someone what they were talking about. Sorry had to be you.

You sat here saying he was pathetic point after point, yet looking at the numbers and rest of the forums sentiment. Toby was one of our best yesterday.
No one played great but at least he didn't play bad.

Anyway, this is the last braincells I will be wasting on this. On to the ignore list you go.

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BurgoShark said:

I think there should definitely be scope for having a discussion about Toby's attacking performance in the opening 25 minutes of the game.

Tacking on the other 16 and pretending that Toby played 41 minutes of even share possession is disingenuous.

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XGinga said:

I agree should be looked at but just going on what you had said above, it looks like the 5 runs were in his first stint. So 5 runs for 25 mins of football when again we didn't have much ball seems about right.
Maybe possession in the first stint was closer then second meaning he made less tackles first time around.

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symptom, not the disease

XGinga said:

I agree should be looked at but just going on what you had said above, it looks like the 5 runs were in his first stint. So 5 runs for 25 mins of football when again we didn't have much ball seems about right.
Maybe possession in the first stint was closer then second meaning he made less tackles first time around.

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BurgoShark said:

Yeah - nrl.com has him down for 47, so assuming we are counting the same, it is 26 in 25 minutes during his first stint.

Re-watched Toby's first stint.

- He had three runs in the first 8 minutes (Sharks ~65% possession)
- Two in the next 7 minutes (~50% possession)
- None in the next 10 minutes (~20% possession)

So it was actually 5 runs in 15 minutes, and then he played his next 26 minutes with the Knights having the ball almost the entire time.

As I said way back when it was raised, front rowers not taking many runs is the symptom, not the disease

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