Round 12 2015 Cronulla Sutherland Sharks v St.George Illawarra Dragons, Sunday 31st May, 4pm @ Jubilee Oval

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Sutty

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I question how physical a team we really are. We are mid-range in terms of possession percentage, at like 50.09% over the season, yet are clearly last in the amount of tackles made. We are not getting blokes into tackles, which is the trade-mark of teams like Brisbane/St George this season. Surely defensive pressure is the sign of a physical team.
 

Gards

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Your right Sutty, I should have said that we like to try and be a physical team but it's just an illusion...all we know how to do is run at defenders and flop in the scrum. We don't score points so we get the tag of being a grinding team as well but we don't even do that well

We show glimpses of intensity and ball playing and that is what is most frustrating
 

Boundos

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Our speed in the ruck is one of our largest downfalls. We never get fast play the balls. Other teams charge at the line hit it and drop to all fours, quickly up and playing it for the same next tackle. After that x 2 or 3 the halves and backs generally have a ton of room to set something up.

What our forwards do is hit the line at half speed, then stand there wrestling with three to four guys who eventually place us on our back and lie on us, peeling off one at a time and by the time the ball comes out for the next tackle, the defence is set and rushing up as one to do the same again.

Frustrates me to no end watching it.
 

oozy

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Our speed in the ruck is one of our largest downfalls. We never get fast play the balls. Other teams charge at the line hit it and drop to all fours, quickly up and playing it for the same next tackle. After that x 2 or 3 the halves and backs generally have a ton of room to set something up.

What our forwards do is hit the line at half speed, then stand there wrestling with three to four guys who eventually place us on our back and lie on us, peeling off one at a time and by the time the ball comes out for the next tackle, the defence is set and rushing up as one to do the same again.

Frustrates me to no end watching it.

that's pretty much what i see as well.
shouldn't our coach be screaming that as they leave the sheds/locker room "quick play the balls guys" , "quick play the balls"

without it in this era, you a going nowhere fast.
which remind's me. our play the ball speed has to be the slowest in the comp,yeah?
""nah way you say""
okay,so i went back and watched
only studied our games/players, so cant honestly comment on other teams.

So average play the ball speed in seconds (my opinion) after recording every game (missed 4 when in hosp) since i stupidly signed up for foxtel (1998) & internet availability since (2006).
i've tried but i cant video edit for ****e. downloaded the best user friendly software, but to no avail. i still suck.
anyway here is my up**** ,um i mean upshot from 2013 till july 1 2015.
Forwards only this time: might do backs later...

A. Fiftita = 6.9 secs ++ ( forgets he has 16 other team mates & the game plan isn't called, can andrew score a try)
P. Gallen = 5.2 secs + ( thinking by drawing defenders in, struggling, then maybe off loading to blokes with their 3rd hammy op) (poetic licence)
W.Graham = 3.8 secs + ( average play the ball speed, the fend & wrestle notwithstanding is still pretty slick)
C. Heighington = 5.1 secs + ( the original hit & spinster, again who's putting their hand up to get crunched? jk.)
L. Lewis = 2.9 secs + ( fastest play the ball we have, at his age he should be ashamed of him self )
A. Tupou = 4.1 secs + ( gauged on 14 off the bench cameos, must still think kearney is in the side)
J. Bukuya = 3.3 secs + ( pretty slick considering he runs & steps into the meat)
M. Prior = *3.9* secs + ( stats inconclusive, but another back turner, but why ,oh yeah that's right we have barba lurking around)
S. Tagataese = *3.2* secs + ( insert pause.......enigma)
(disclaimer) these averages are just for petty curiosity obviously & mean absolutely nothing.

this list albeit forwards only does however sort of segway into a point i made a few weeks ago that know one would of read anyway because i'm a waffler.
it simply stated that we have way too many clones.
list management should be the key to success not your bloody damnation.

it's a puzzle ain't it del boy>? butt hurt me ...sort it, now you plonkers..

just in case, punters should be under know bellusion, i'm a shark till i die, i am.



* means tenure too short ,or' im pissed & couldn't give a friggenhausen figuring it out responsibly.
 

Sutty

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Oh dang seriously lotsa stats there bud. 0_O

Clearly there's a big trend of the guys with slower play-the-balls listed there, also having given the most 2nd phase play. Fifita/Gallen/Heighington/Tupou/Prior would probably be in order of most average offloads per game.

I think play the ball speed a real interesting topic. I also think it's a very complicated theory, because a team like the Warriors had dramatically changed their play-style to be a more fast-play-the-ball style I think starting with Matthew Elliott as coach, but that meant that blokes like Mateo put away his main strength of the offload in his final 2 years there and it showed in his performances. I think skillfull offloaders should be given free-reign to try it, whereas the metre-eaters can just aim for the quick play the ball.

Personally, I don't have any strong thoughts for or against the fight-tackles-and-offload or the quick-play-the-ball styles, I think it depends on the individual player, and they should stick to doing one or the other whichever they are best at (For instance I think Arona this year was noticeably making efforts to not fight tackles and get the quick play the balls, David Fifita to a degree as well).

I think our running meters are absolutely fine even at the moment, so I think our coaching staff should be more concerned about the defensive side of things - Slowing the opponents play the ball. With the amount of cap space we spend in our forwards, we should be dominating forward battles against less skilled packs by packing men into tackles. Hence why I think defensive locks are the way forward, rather than the Lewis/Gallen style. But that's definitely up for debate.
 

Boundos

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Oh dang seriously lotsa stats there bud. 0_O

Clearly there's a big trend of the guys with slower play-the-balls listed there, also having given the most 2nd phase play. Fifita/Gallen/Heighington/Tupou/Prior would probably be in order of most average offloads per game.
I think play the ball speed a real interesting topic. I also think it's a very complicated theory, because a team like the Warriors had dramatically changed their play-style to be a more fast-play-the-ball style I think starting with Matthew Elliott as coach, but that meant that blokes like Mateo put away his main strength of the offload in his final 2 years there and it showed in his performances. I think skillfull offloaders should be given free-reign to try it, whereas the metre-eaters can just aim for the quick play the ball.

Personally, I don't have any strong thoughts for or against the fight-tackles-and-offload or the quick-play-the-ball styles, I think it depends on the individual player, and they should stick to doing one or the other whichever they are best at (For instance I think Arona this year was noticeably making efforts to not fight tackles and get the quick play the balls, David Fifita to a degree as well).

I think our running meters are absolutely fine even at the moment, so I think our coaching staff should be more concerned about the defensive side of things - Slowing the opponents play the ball. With the amount of cap space we spend in our forwards, we should be dominating forward battles against less skilled packs by packing men into tackles. Hence why I think defensive locks are the way forward, rather than the Lewis/Gallen style. But that's definitely up for debate.


Ok now tell me how many of these offloads resulted in a line break, or even an advantage? Just coz they are throwing the ball out doesnt mean its effective and i think you will generally find that most offloads that these guys throw, the receiver is either smashed behind where the offload took place, or very close to even with it. An offload for the sake of an offload doesnt help in anyway shape or form, and in fact slows down our ruck play even more.
 

sharks2010

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Ok now tell me how many of these offloads resulted in a line break, or even an advantage? Just coz they are throwing the ball out doesnt mean its effective and i think you will generally find that most offloads that these guys throw, the receiver is either smashed behind where the offload took place, or very close to even with it. An offload for the sake of an offload doesnt help in anyway shape or form, and in fact slows down our ruck play even more.
been saying that for years, our offloading ability is a myth, most cases we barely make it past the player offloading
 
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been saying that for years, our offloading ability is a myth, most cases we barely make it past the player offloading
Agree reckon fast play the ball gives more momentum than a offload to someone flat footed.... Off load to someone flying past all good
 

Sparkles

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that's pretty much what i see as well.
shouldn't our coach be screaming that as they leave the sheds/locker room "quick play the balls guys" , "quick play the balls"

without it in this era, you a going nowhere fast.
which remind's me. our play the ball speed has to be the slowest in the comp,yeah?
""nah way you say""
okay,so i went back and watched
only studied our games/players, so cant honestly comment on other teams.

So average play the ball speed in seconds (my opinion) after recording every game (missed 4 when in hosp) since i stupidly signed up for foxtel (1998) & internet availability since (2006).
i've tried but i cant video edit for ****e. downloaded the best user friendly software, but to no avail. i still suck.
anyway here is my up**** ,um i mean upshot from 2013 till july 1 2015.
Forwards only this time: might do backs later...

A. Fiftita = 6.9 secs ++ ( forgets he has 16 other team mates & the game plan isn't called, can andrew score a try)
P. Gallen = 5.2 secs + ( thinking by drawing defenders in, struggling, then maybe off loading to blokes with their 3rd hammy op) (poetic licence)
W.Graham = 3.8 secs + ( average play the ball speed, the fend & wrestle notwithstanding is still pretty slick)
C. Heighington = 5.1 secs + ( the original hit & spinster, again who's putting their hand up to get crunched? jk.)
L. Lewis = 2.9 secs + ( fastest play the ball we have, at his age he should be ashamed of him self )
A. Tupou = 4.1 secs + ( gauged on 14 off the bench cameos, must still think kearney is in the side)
J. Bukuya = 3.3 secs + ( pretty slick considering he runs & steps into the meat)
M. Prior = *3.9* secs + ( stats inconclusive, but another back turner, but why ,oh yeah that's right we have barba lurking around)
S. Tagataese = *3.2* secs + ( insert pause.......enigma)
(disclaimer) these averages are just for petty curiosity obviously & mean absolutely nothing.

this list albeit forwards only does however sort of segway into a point i made a few weeks ago that know one would of read anyway because i'm a waffler.
it simply stated that we have way too many clones.
list management should be the key to success not your bloody damnation.

it's a puzzle ain't it del boy>? butt hurt me ...sort it, now you plonkers..

just in case, punters should be under know bellusion, i'm a shark till i die, i am.



* means tenure too short ,or' im pissed & couldn't give a friggenhausen figuring it out responsibly.

Props to you for your prop statistics!

It's interesting isn't it... We know that the play the ball is a tactical weapon that some teams understand and use to their advantage. Take Thaiday - you watch how he takes a tackle... he's almost on the ground before the tackler knows he's in a tackle!

The timing of back getting involved in the hit-ups can be a real advantage too. They generally get a fast play the ball in, which turns the defence around and give those big poppers more ability to bend the line back. Getting the ball wider earlier in the tackle count can be a great way to give your forwards a chance to eat up some good yardage.

The 5 up the middle mentality is predictable and has to make it harder on our forwards to gain an advantage.... and you almost NEVER see backs probing for holes around the middle of the park, even in the second half when those forwards are tiring. The odd inside ball to Gordon (when Gallen allows it) is about all we get (and even that happens closer to the centre's)...
 

Sutty

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Ok now tell me how many of these offloads resulted in a line break, or even an advantage? Just coz they are throwing the ball out doesnt mean its effective and i think you will generally find that most offloads that these guys throw, the receiver is either smashed behind where the offload took place, or very close to even with it. An offload for the sake of an offload doesnt help in anyway shape or form, and in fact slows down our ruck play even more.
A quick play the ball also wouldn't result in line breaks for us, because we don't have a halfback. Doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, just that we are not using it effectively.
 

Boundos

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A quick play the ball also wouldn't result in line breaks for us, because we don't have a halfback. Doesn't mean it's a bad strategy, just that we are not using it effectively.

Even the best halfbacks in the game have crap matches when they are given no room by their forwards. Now i am not saying give Robbo room and he will show his class. I think its pretty clear that Robbo has all the class of a tijuana street hooker, but giving your playmakers room to move allows for more chances.
 
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