2022 Playing Style

BurgoShark

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Okanbur kicked out at him like 3 times absolute joke he wasn't at least fined.

Fell in love with big fella the moment I saw the thinning hairline/headtape combo.

Is Tom eligible for a development deal? I'm not totally across how they work.
Anyone is eligible for a development deal. It's just the new name for the Second Tier salary cap. No restrictions on age or where they came from.

They are just limited to $60k plus match payments - which is not much different to a train and trial ($1k per week plus match payments). The only real difference is that development players being allowed to play NRL after round 11 or in certain circumstances (injuries or Covid).
 

Sevshark

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Anyone is eligible for a development deal. It's just the new name for the Second Tier salary cap. No restrictions on age or where they came from.

They are just limited to $60k plus match payments - which is not much different to a train and trial ($1k per week plus match payments). The only real difference is that development players being allowed to play NRL after round 11 or in certain circumstances (injuries or Covid).
Thanks mate, just wasn't certain if there was an age-limit for it or not. Would probably prefer Colquhoun on the development and big Tom on a minimum deal, feel he's earned it.
 

BurgoShark

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Thanks mate, just wasn't certain if there was an age-limit for it or not. Would probably prefer Colquhoun on the development and big Tom on a minimum deal, feel he's earned it.
Even if The Nut was kept on an ongoing T&T I reckon that would be good. Keep him on the payroll, let him keep training with the NRL squad, and make sure he is one of the first players picked for the Jets.

I loved Colquhoun's game vs the Dogs. He is my new favourite Sharks prospect.

One of... he's up there with these two of course...
 

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Sevshark

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Even if The Nut was kept on an ongoing T&T I reckon that would be good. Keep him on the payroll, let him keep training with the NRL squad, and make sure he is one of the first players picked for the Jets.

I loved Colquhoun's game vs the Dogs. He is my new favourite Sharks prospect.

One of... he's up there with these two of course...

Certainly on the same wave-length there,
Hoping to see both of them firing for the Jets by years end.
 
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Even if The Nut was kept on an ongoing T&T I reckon that would be good. Keep him on the payroll, let him keep training with the NRL squad, and make sure he is one of the first players picked for the Jets.

I loved Colquhoun's game vs the Dogs. He is my new favourite Sharks prospect.

One of... he's up there with these two of course...
I'm liking Dykes but with Kennedy proving so good at Fullback is there purpose in grooming Dykes for another position. Can't see Kennedy going anywhere for a while ? Nice problem to have

Agree Colquhoun .. looking forward to seeing him develop.
 

BurgoShark

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I'm liking Dykes but with Kennedy proving so good at Fullback is there purpose in grooming Dykes for another position. Can't see Kennedy going anywhere for a while ? Nice problem to have

Agree Colquhoun .. looking forward to seeing him develop.
Dykes was a 6 until last season. Doesn’t have much of a passing game yet though, and I have no idea whether he can kick. I can see why at junior rep level at least it makes sense to have him playing 1 rather than 6. He needs time to improve.

Dykes is 19. Keep in mind that after finishing u20’s in 2017 Kennedy played 2 full seasons in the NSW Cup - one without an NRL contract at all - and didn’t become a top 30 player until he was 23.

Dykes could end up playing 2 full seasons of Flegg and 2 full seasons for the Jets before we have this problem, by which time WK will be almost 29.

The other thing is, even though NRL fullbacks have a passing game, it is an exception in lower grades and juniors. Even most above-average-or-good NRL fullbacks of recent years had a limited passing game when they were 20 (Teddy, Latrell, Pap, RTS, Brimson, Turbo, GI) and even some current ones are pretty limited (Val, CNK, Edwards). The only ones I can think of who had a good passing game immediately are ones who predominantly played in the halves coming through juniors (Ponga, Drinkwater, Hynes, Coote, Gutho).

For most junior teams - even at rep level - the fullback is a kick returner and defence organiser. Teams run block plays to give them space but you rarely see them setup and expose a 3 on 2 etc.
 
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Dykes was a 6 until last season. Doesn’t have much of a passing game yet though, and I have no idea whether he can kick. I can see why at junior rep level at least it makes sense to have him playing 1 rather than 6. He needs time to improve.

Dykes is 19. Keep in mind that after finishing u20’s in 2017 Kennedy played 2 full seasons in the NSW Cup - one without an NRL contract at all - and didn’t become a top 30 player until he was 23.

Dykes could end up playing 2 full seasons of Flegg and 2 full seasons for the Jets before we have this problem, by which time WK will be almost 29.

The other thing is, even though NRL fullbacks have a passing game, it is an exception in lower grades and juniors. Even most above-average-or-good NRL fullbacks of recent years had a limited passing game when they were 20 (Teddy, Latrell, Pap, RTS, Brimson, Turbo, GI) and even some current ones are pretty limited (Val, CNK, Edwards). The only ones I can think of who had a good passing game immediately are ones who predominantly played in the halves coming through juniors (Ponga, Drinkwater, Hynes, Coote, Gutho).

For most junior teams - even at rep level - the fullback is a kick returner and defence organiser. Teams run block plays to give them space but you rarely see them setup and expose a 3 on 2 etc.
Excuse my question Burgo because I must admit I never played the game but aren't all junior players taught to pass the ball as a fundamental of the game? This has always puzzled me - forwards I could probably excuse not being able to pass much, but anyone with 1-7 on their backs and 9 of course should have this embedded in them from an early age. Surely they can see how important it is in the NRL so why not get them started on it early in their development?
 

bort

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Burgess likely add his insight but I'd say...

There's a difference between knowing the mechanics of passing, and being capable of passing vs being able to execute good quality and well chosen passes at high speed.

Your average junior fullback can probably do all the passing drills you want them to without any hassle but put them in a game and 99% are just gunna try and run round people when the ball is in their hands. Most coaches will put their best ball runner at fullback too, and probably rightly so, but again that kid is gunna wanna run.

Most plays they train for will be off the back of the halves too, probably wouldn't draw too many up that include the fullback.

Junior players are taught to tackle as a fundamental too but plenty of NRL players aren't fantastic defenders, same for passing/pass selection.

Even think about (if you've seen it) the gimmick you see on the footy show trying to pass the ball through a hole in a target. There are former elite rep halves they have not consistently putting the ball through that hole and these are some of the best passing games the NRL has had... with everyone sprinting and defenders around it gets even trickier.

A basic capacity to pass does not equal a passing game.
 
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Burgess likely add his insight but I'd say...

There's a difference between knowing the mechanics of passing, and being capable of passing vs being able to execute good quality and well chosen passes at high speed.

Your average junior fullback can probably do all the passing drills you want them to without any hassle but put them in a game and 99% are just gunna try and run round people when the ball is in their hands. Most coaches will put their best ball runner at fullback too, and probably rightly so, but again that kid is gunna wanna run.

Most plays they train for will be off the back of the halves too, probably wouldn't draw too many up that include the fullback.

Junior players are taught to tackle as a fundamental too but plenty of NRL players aren't fantastic defenders, same for passing/pass selection.

Even think about (if you've seen it) the gimmick you see on the footy show trying to pass the ball through a hole in a target. There are former elite rep halves they have not consistently putting the ball through that hole and these are some of the best passing games the NRL has had... a basic capacity to pass does not equal a passing game.
Thanks Bort. I equate in some way to the training of elite soccer players (this is the winter sport I played). Most from a reasonably early age in the top grades were taught to pass and kick with either foot so that when they reached the elite levels they were able to do so. Golly, even myself, a very lowly ranked player was taught to do this and in all my years could kick equally as well with both feet. I just thought the same goes for league.
 

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Thanks Bort. I equate in some way to the training of elite soccer players (this is the winter sport I played). Most from a reasonably early age in the top grades were taught to pass and kick with either foot so that when they reached the elite levels they were able to do so. Golly, even myself, a very lowly ranked player was taught to do this and in all my years could kick equally as well with both feet. I just thought the same goes for league.
You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not
 
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You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not
I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.
 

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I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.
I agree, boggles my mind as well.
 

BurgoShark

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Excuse my question Burgo because I must admit I never played the game but aren't all junior players taught to pass the ball as a fundamental of the game? This has always puzzled me - forwards I could probably excuse not being able to pass much, but anyone with 1-7 on their backs and 9 of course should have this embedded in them from an early age. Surely they can see how important it is in the NRL so why not get them started on it early in their development?
WIthout quoting all of bort's stuff, I'll say he is on the money. Most fullbacks are put there for their running game. They know how to pass, but all of those other things like positioning your body, reading defence etc. need to be learned. If you are not being put in those situations regularly in games you are not learning it. Drills can only take you so far.

Now, as for whether every player is being taught fundamentals currently in junior footy, that is a different issue. There is a mountain of research which says that up to about 15 or 16 for almost any sport, the most important thing is making it enjoyable so they stay in the game, but from a long-term development point of view the most important things are 1) body movements, and 2) fundamentals of the sport. There are exceptions (e.g. gymnasts peak very young, and you can't be an ice hockey player if you can't skate) but this is the case for most sports.

When I say body movements, what I mean is that you are primarily training an athlete, not a footballer. He's not going to be good at his chosen sport if he can't run, jump, turn, push, pull, roll over, get off the ground quickly etc. These are not things that you runs drills for. They are things kids can learn playing in the back yard, playing in the park, playing fun games at training, or by doing another sport. Without a strong base of this stuff, no kid is going far in the game. As a very small sample, all of the best players I've coached are the ones who play more than one sport (they play basketball or soccer at school, or mountain bike on the weekend etc.).

As far as fundamentals are concerned, what constitutes a "fundamental Rugby League skill" can be a bit open to debate. The way I coach, I tend to define a fundamental as "something that anybody can learn to do well regardless of their natural talent or previous experience". For example, while "tackling" is a pretty important part of the game, proper tackle technique is something that different players grasp at different times of their development. Not everybody can tackle, but everybody can move up in defence, get their body in front of the opposition player, and get their head out the way so they don't get hurt. The mechanics of different tackles is definitely something I teach, but again, without doing those other 3 things first they don't have much hope of learning how to tackle properly.

If we say that is #1, some of the other things I consider fundamentals would be:
1. Moving up together in a line, body in front, stay safe
2. Running on to the ball
3. Catching the ball (ideally with their hands up ready beforehand),
4. Calling for the ball
5. Passing (just short passes of 2-3m)
6. Playing the ball (properly)
7. Supporting the ball carrier
8. Finding your front (playing the ball from your front if possible)
9. Following the play (chasing kicks, cover defending if you are able, etc.)
10. Diving on loose balls

I wouldn't call that an exhaustive list - but these are all simple things that every player can at least try to do, no matter how big/small/fast/slow they are. No matter how talented your kids are, if they turn up to training and you can get them to do these things, they will all improve both individually and as a team. You would be amazed at how many kids can't do these things when I start coaching them, and how few coaches take time to teach this stuff. I know kids on Broncos scholarships who can't do more than 3-4.

Once a player has a good base of body movements and fundamental skills, you start to move in to tactical skills. These help you win, but you wouldn't call them fundamentals. Marker systems, edge defence, line running, attacking shape, defusing kicks, etc. are all very useful in the context of winning games, but they are not fundamentals. In particular, I have always done a lot of work on attacking shape - but with a specific goal in mind regarding fundamentals. I want to make sure that all of my players get put in eyes-up run-or-pass situations at some point during the game, so I play a structure that creates it. My teams will never have a front rower who only runs one-out, or a winger who only ever gets the ball on dummy half scoots.

Finally, we have position-specific skills. The big question is when to start introducing this stuff. What most coaches do is look at their players and say "he looks like a second rower, that chubby kid is a prop, and that skinny kid who can pass would make a good 7", and so on. He sorts the in the kids into groups of "backs, forwards and ballplayers" and trains each group accordingly. This is a great way to win games but a terrible way to develop talent. The earlier you do this, the bigger the gap you are creating. Kids learn more if they are put in different situations during games, and by seeing the game from different points of view. That 13yo winger might end up being the ball-playing lock when he is 17 - but only if he learns to pass during games. That skinny hooker might be your best back rower in 3 years, but only if he learns to take hit-ups. Doing the drills isn't enough. The research says that the longer you can delay pinning a player in a specific position, the better off he will be long-term. This is the complete opposite of how most junior sport (not just Rugby League) is coached.

As a bit of experiment, go to YouTube and search for a random game between u11 and u15, watch for 15-20 minutes and count how many times someone other than the 6, 7 or 9 passes the ball, and how many times a winger touches it other than a kick return or a dummy half scoot. There are some teams who do it well, but they are the exception rather than the rule. By ignoring fundamentals and pinning kids to positions too early we have created a situation where on most teams 3 kids do 95% of the passing, the other 15 are just ball runners, and we play 99% of our footy in the middle 60% of the field.
 
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bort

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I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.
They are playing in the expert level competition though. Put whoever your bad NRL passer is down a couple grades and plenty of them could play halfback. The lower speed and quality gives them the extra time they need to better use their mechanical ability to pass.

You seem a bit caught up on mechanical ability to pass as the limiting factor - that is only a limiting factor once you add speed, fatigue, pressure and defence. Which actually get added immensely in the NRL.

But ball playing (passing game / play making) is about making the right passes at the right times AND doing it well mechanically.

The names Burgess mentioned (Teddy, Latrell, Pap, RTS, Brimson, Turbo, GI) could all pass a football when they came into the NRL, probably better than 95% of people to lace on a boot. What they, as run oriented players who had advanced to the NRL based on running, had to learn was when to pass... and get that pass right at high speed, under pressure of defence. They could run the play 100 times in training probably get it right 90+ plus when Steve Matai comes screaming in at you from centre things are a bit tough to get right.
Or drop young Teddy to park footy and tell him he's playing halfback he will chop up and probably make plenty of good passes - admittedly he will probably mostly want to run again because at that level he is an insane running threat. Pick him at halfback in the NRL and you'd be sacked because he is not a great passer at that level despite having the same mechanical ability to pass regardless.

Odds are however good you thought you were at passing with both feet the worst passers in the Premier League are better in a live game.
 
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