2022 Playing Style

[Sevshark]

Do they still do a men of league calendar?

Bring it back with an elastoplast sponsorship I say.

Big Nigel Plum to make a comeback as Mr December.

 

[bort]

Bring it back with an elastoplast sponsorship I say.

Big Nigel Plum to make a comeback as Mr December.

Give Hazelton a run?

 

[Sevshark]

Anyone is eligible for a development deal. It's just the new name for the Second Tier salary cap. No restrictions on age or where they came from.

They are just limited to $60k plus match payments - which is not much different to a train and trial ($1k per week plus match payments). The only real difference is that development players being allowed to play NRL after round 11 or in certain circumstances (injuries or Covid).

Thanks mate, just wasn't certain if there was an age-limit for it or not. Would probably prefer Colquhoun on the development and big Tom on a minimum deal, feel he's earned it.

 

[Sevshark]

Give Hazelton a run?

That was how this conversation started my friend.

 

[bort]

That was how this conversation started my friend.

Oh right haha

In that case I’ll just nominate Capewell for the cardboard back sheet with a hole precut in the mouth…

 

[Sevshark]

Even if The Nut was kept on an ongoing T&T I reckon that would be good. Keep him on the payroll, let him keep training with the NRL squad, and make sure he is one of the first players picked for the Jets.

I loved Colquhoun's game vs the Dogs. He is my new favourite Sharks prospect.

One of... he's up there with these two of course...

Certainly on the same wave-length there,
Hoping to see both of them firing for the Jets by years end.

 

[Tiger Shark]

Even if The Nut was kept on an ongoing T&T I reckon that would be good. Keep him on the payroll, let him keep training with the NRL squad, and make sure he is one of the first players picked for the Jets.

I loved Colquhoun's game vs the Dogs. He is my new favourite Sharks prospect.

One of... he's up there with these two of course...

I'm liking Dykes but with Kennedy proving so good at Fullback is there purpose in grooming Dykes for another position. Can't see Kennedy going anywhere for a while ? Nice problem to have

Agree Colquhoun .. looking forward to seeing him develop.

 

[Sir Chadley]

Dykes was a 6 until last season. Doesn’t have much of a passing game yet though, and I have no idea whether he can kick. I can see why at junior rep level at least it makes sense to have him playing 1 rather than 6. He needs time to improve.

Dykes is 19. Keep in mind that after finishing u20’s in 2017 Kennedy played 2 full seasons in the NSW Cup - one without an NRL contract at all - and didn’t become a top 30 player until he was 23.

Dykes could end up playing 2 full seasons of Flegg and 2 full seasons for the Jets before we have this problem, by which time WK will be almost 29.

The other thing is, even though NRL fullbacks have a passing game, it is an exception in lower grades and juniors. Even most above-average-or-good NRL fullbacks of recent years had a limited passing game when they were 20 (Teddy, Latrell, Pap, RTS, Brimson, Turbo, GI) and even some current ones are pretty limited (Val, CNK, Edwards). The only ones I can think of who had a good passing game immediately are ones who predominantly played in the halves coming through juniors (Ponga, Drinkwater, Hynes, Coote, Gutho).

For most junior teams - even at rep level - the fullback is a kick returner and defence organiser. Teams run block plays to give them space but you rarely see them setup and expose a 3 on 2 etc.

Excuse my question Burgo because I must admit I never played the game but aren't all junior players taught to pass the ball as a fundamental of the game? This has always puzzled me - forwards I could probably excuse not being able to pass much, but anyone with 1-7 on their backs and 9 of course should have this embedded in them from an early age. Surely they can see how important it is in the NRL so why not get them started on it early in their development?

 

[bort]

Burgess likely add his insight but I'd say...

There's a difference between knowing the mechanics of passing, and being capable of passing vs being able to execute good quality and well chosen passes at high speed.

Your average junior fullback can probably do all the passing drills you want them to without any hassle but put them in a game and 99% are just gunna try and run round people when the ball is in their hands. Most coaches will put their best ball runner at fullback too, and probably rightly so, but again that kid is gunna wanna run.

Most plays they train for will be off the back of the halves too, probably wouldn't draw too many up that include the fullback.

Junior players are taught to tackle as a fundamental too but plenty of NRL players aren't fantastic defenders, same for passing/pass selection.

Even think about (if you've seen it) the gimmick you see on the footy show trying to pass the ball through a hole in a target. There are former elite rep halves they have not consistently putting the ball through that hole and these are some of the best passing games the NRL has had... with everyone sprinting and defenders around it gets even trickier.

A basic capacity to pass does not equal a passing game.

 

[Sir Chadley]

Burgess likely add his insight but I'd say...

There's a difference between knowing the mechanics of passing, and being capable of passing vs being able to execute good quality and well chosen passes at high speed.

Your average junior fullback can probably do all the passing drills you want them to without any hassle but put them in a game and 99% are just gunna try and run round people when the ball is in their hands. Most coaches will put their best ball runner at fullback too, and probably rightly so, but again that kid is gunna wanna run.

Most plays they train for will be off the back of the halves too, probably wouldn't draw too many up that include the fullback.

Junior players are taught to tackle as a fundamental too but plenty of NRL players aren't fantastic defenders, same for passing/pass selection.

Even think about (if you've seen it) the gimmick you see on the footy show trying to pass the ball through a hole in a target. There are former elite rep halves they have not consistently putting the ball through that hole and these are some of the best passing games the NRL has had... a basic capacity to pass does not equal a passing game.

Thanks Bort. I equate in some way to the training of elite soccer players (this is the winter sport I played). Most from a reasonably early age in the top grades were taught to pass and kick with either foot so that when they reached the elite levels they were able to do so. Golly, even myself, a very lowly ranked player was taught to do this and in all my years could kick equally as well with both feet. I just thought the same goes for league.

 

[bort]

Thanks Bort. I equate in some way to the training of elite soccer players (this is the winter sport I played). Most from a reasonably early age in the top grades were taught to pass and kick with either foot so that when they reached the elite levels they were able to do so. Golly, even myself, a very lowly ranked player was taught to do this and in all my years could kick equally as well with both feet. I just thought the same goes for league.

You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not

 

[Sir Chadley]

You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not

I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.

 

[HaroldBishop]

I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.

I agree, boggles my mind as well.

 

[bort]

I'm not talking about if they can do it expertly but just that they are able to do it and pass with both feet. There will always be players who can do it better than others in game situations but in the case of league players to me the fact that some cannot throw a pass well at all in even the simplest sense is beyond my comprehension.

They are playing in the expert level competition though. Put whoever your bad NRL passer is down a couple grades and plenty of them could play halfback. The lower speed and quality gives them the extra time they need to better use their mechanical ability to pass.

You seem a bit caught up on mechanical ability to pass as the limiting factor - that is only a limiting factor once you add speed, fatigue, pressure and defence. Which actually get added immensely in the NRL.

But ball playing (passing game / play making) is about making the right passes at the right times AND doing it well mechanically.

The names Burgess mentioned (Teddy, Latrell, Pap, RTS, Brimson, Turbo, GI) could all pass a football when they came into the NRL, probably better than 95% of people to lace on a boot. What they, as run oriented players who had advanced to the NRL based on running, had to learn was when to pass... and get that pass right at high speed, under pressure of defence. They could run the play 100 times in training probably get it right 90+ plus when Steve Matai comes screaming in at you from centre things are a bit tough to get right.
Or drop young Teddy to park footy and tell him he's playing halfback he will chop up and probably make plenty of good passes - admittedly he will probably mostly want to run again because at that level he is an insane running threat. Pick him at halfback in the NRL and you'd be sacked because he is not a great passer at that level despite having the same mechanical ability to pass regardless.

Odds are however good you thought you were at passing with both feet the worst passers in the Premier League are better in a live game.

 

[bort]

Not everybody can tackle, but everybody can move up in defence, get their body in front of the opposition player, and get their head out the way so they don't get hurt.

Wade Graham is personally offended by this statement.

 

[Sir Chadley]

Thanks Bort and Burgess for your summaries, I have a lot more understanding now of how junior players are taught and developed. While I concede the fundamentals are harder to do in a game and under pressure, it seems like there is still room for improvement in how kids are taught these basic skills.

 

[bort]

Also note from Burgess' list

1. Moving up together in a line, body in front, stay safe
2. Running on to the ball
3. Catching the ball (ideally with their hands up ready beforehand),
4. Calling for the ball/communication in general
5. Passing (just short passes of 2-3m)
6. Playing the ball (properly)
7. Supporting the ball carrier/doing work off the ball
8. Finding your front (playing the ball from your front if possible)
9. Following the play (chasing kicks, cover defending if you are able, etc.)
10. Diving on loose balls

I would characterise most of these as 'effort' skills rather than technical skills, although there is of course elements of technique involved to various extents. (playing the ball properly maybe a bit of a grey area, but typically it is laziness not lack of skill that is the issue with any PTB).

So while passing is an important skill, and so are many other things, being a good rugby league player arguably starts with effort. You can tick a lot of core boxes just by putting your all into things, so if you are a great runner of the football and make a great effort you can make the NRL without being a top (by NRL standards) passer.
If you are great at passing but don't make **** all effort you might not tick enough boxes to make it.

(I tacked communication in general onto point 4 and also added to point 7 - could tweak the list all day but felt those two extra were important enough to add - I know it wasn't meant to be and still is not a definitive list)

 

[bort]

Yeah I definitely agree they need to be taught how and why to make the effort

 

[HaroldBishop]

You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not

Forget about in a game situation, plenty of them are terrible at passing their non dominant direction full stop.

 

[Sparkles]

Excuse my question Burgo because I must admit I never played the game but aren't all junior players taught to pass the ball as a fundamental of the game? This has always puzzled me - forwards I could probably excuse not being able to pass much, but anyone with 1-7 on their backs and 9 of course should have this embedded in them from an early age. Surely they can see how important it is in the NRL so why not get them started on it early in their development?

We're all Burgo

For me the difference was always passing at speed to blokes in full flight. There was a point where I was okay either side, but playing with really good backs and hitting a cut out at a million miles an hour was a hard step up. It's a lot harder to judge than they make it look