2022 Playing Style

burgess1978 said:

Not everybody can tackle, but everybody can move up in defence, get their body in front of the opposition player, and get their head out the way so they don't get hurt.

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Wade Graham is personally offended by this statement.

Thanks Bort and Burgess for your summaries, I have a lot more understanding now of how junior players are taught and developed. While I concede the fundamentals are harder to do in a game and under pressure, it seems like there is still room for improvement in how kids are taught these basic skills.

bort said:

Wade Graham is personally offended by this statement.

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He may have been, but he's probably forgotten by now.

Also note from Burgess' list

1. Moving up together in a line, body in front, stay safe
2. Running on to the ball
3. Catching the ball (ideally with their hands up ready beforehand),
4. Calling for the ball/communication in general
5. Passing (just short passes of 2-3m)
6. Playing the ball (properly)
7. Supporting the ball carrier/doing work off the ball
8. Finding your front (playing the ball from your front if possible)
9. Following the play (chasing kicks, cover defending if you are able, etc.)
10. Diving on loose balls

I would characterise most of these as 'effort' skills rather than technical skills, although there is of course elements of technique involved to various extents. (playing the ball properly maybe a bit of a grey area, but typically it is laziness not lack of skill that is the issue with any PTB).

So while passing is an important skill, and so are many other things, being a good rugby league player arguably starts with effort. You can tick a lot of core boxes just by putting your all into things, so if you are a great runner of the football and make a great effort you can make the NRL without being a top (by NRL standards) passer.
If you are great at passing but don't make **** all effort you might not tick enough boxes to make it.

(I tacked communication in general onto point 4 and also added to point 7 - could tweak the list all day but felt those two extra were important enough to add - I know it wasn't meant to be and still is not a definitive list)

bort said:

Also note from Burgess' list

1. Moving up together in a line, body in front, stay safe
2. Running on to the ball
3. Catching the ball (ideally with their hands up ready beforehand),
4. Calling for the ball/communication in general
5. Passing (just short passes of 2-3m)
6. Playing the ball (properly)
7. Supporting the ball carrier/doing work off the ball
8. Finding your front (playing the ball from your front if possible)
9. Following the play (chasing kicks, cover defending if you are able, etc.)
10. Diving on loose balls

I would characterise most of these as 'effort' skills rather than technical skills, although there is of course elements of technique involved to various extents. (playing the ball properly maybe a bit of a grey area, but typically it is laziness not lack of skill that is the issue with any PTB).

So while passing is an important skill, and so are many other things, being a good rugby league player arguably starts with effort. You can tick a lot of core boxes just by putting your all into things, so if you are a great runner of the football and make a great effort you can make the NRL without being a top (by NRL standards) passer.
If you are great at passing but don't make **** all effort you might not tick enough boxes to make it.

(I tacked communication in general onto point 4 and also added to point 7 - could tweak the list all day but felt those two extra were important enough to add - I know it wasn't meant to be and still is not a definitive list)

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While many of these are effort plays, they all need to be coached. It's not only about effort. Kids do not inherently know that when you run on to the ball you are harder to tackle, that when you move up it makes the other blokes easier to tackle, or that when the ball is sitting there on the ground you need to beat the bad guys to it. All of these things take time for players to actually learn and understand. None of it is automatic, and even the kids who are really good at it when they are young learned it somewhere. My son learned in the back yard when he was 5 that Dad is the world's biggest cheat, so even if he knocks it on you'd better dive on it just in case Dad claims it was a knock back. Guess what? He’s the best in the team at diving on loose balls and always has been.

It's like when some kid is being driven backwards or towards the side-line and all of the parents are screaming HELP HIM! The parents are thinking "how could they just sit there and watch their teammate get driven back?", but the kid is thinking "what are those parents on about?" because he's never specifically been taught to get in behind his teammate in that situation. Nothing is automatic.

Same for GO WITH HIM, SPREAD OUT, MOVE UP, CHASE IT, and so on. Parents can scream all day. Unless the kid has been taught to do those things he's zero chance of doing anything when he hears the parents screaming.

Every little skill in the game - no matter how instinctive you think it is as a long-time fan/player/parent - needs to be taught.

Yeah I definitely agree they need to be taught how and why to make the effort

bort said:

You could kick equally well with both feet... for a very lowly ranked player. Put an elite defender on you how well can you pass with both feet now?
Did you actually pass equally as well with both feet or did you only do that in training and actually in games you'd favour a side when you had a choice? If under pressure is there a chance you'd fall back on one foot rather than the other?

Were there players, perhaps not you, who could do a passing drill no worries, but had a run first mentality in games?
Were there players who passed equally well with both feet but not quite as well overall when they were at full speed trying to thread a ball past a defender for a sprinting teammate to run on to?

How many strikers would have a preferred foot they shoot from, or penalty takers who have a preferred foot, even if they'd say they can kick with both feet. And for that matter why don't they get the ball in every time if they have been taught to kick since they were young.

How come every Premier League player isn't the same quality passer or as great a playmaker as a passer as all the others?

Knowing how to do something, and the capacity to do something well on the elite stage just don't quite line up.

Most NRL fullbacks make the NRL because they are great runners, that's why they got picked at fullback, that's why they got opportunities.
Can they pass? Probably
Do they have an NRL calibre passing game? Probably not

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Forget about in a game situation, plenty of them are terrible at passing their non dominant direction full stop.

Chad said:

Excuse my question Burgo because I must admit I never played the game but aren't all junior players taught to pass the ball as a fundamental of the game? This has always puzzled me - forwards I could probably excuse not being able to pass much, but anyone with 1-7 on their backs and 9 of course should have this embedded in them from an early age. Surely they can see how important it is in the NRL so why not get them started on it early in their development?

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We're all Burgo

For me the difference was always passing at speed to blokes in full flight. There was a point where I was okay either side, but playing with really good backs and hitting a cut out at a million miles an hour was a hard step up. It's a lot harder to judge than they make it look

Sparkles said:

We're all Burgo

For me the difference was always passing at speed to blokes in full flight. There was a point where I was okay either side, but playing with really good backs and hitting a cut out at a million miles an hour was a hard step up. It's a lot harder to judge than they make it look

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On your off-side with a defender steaming down on you.

But why don't they just get good? Chad and him chums can kick with both feet.

bort said:

On your off-side with a defender steaming down on you.

But why don't they just get good? Chad and him chums can kick with both feet.

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While trying to make an adjustment for crappy service and a winner who's overrun your centre. It is funny how much for granted these fundamentals are taken, when they're really the whole game. But a nice spiral pass on the chest didn't put bums on seats I guess... We want to be entertained and will forgive a lot for a sumersault try in the corner

bort said:

On your off-side with a defender steaming down on you.

But why don't they just get good? Chad and him chums can kick with both feet.

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No need for sarcasm mate, I was asking a genuine question and didn’t realise what the answers were. You were doing fine telling me until just then.

HaroldBishop said:

Forget about in a game situation, plenty of them are terrible at passing their non dominant direction full stop.

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Yeah. This is true - and another good reason to adjust your structure to force that kid to sometimes pass on his bad side

Nothing happens by accident in my team.

Sparkles said:

We're all Burgo

For me the difference was always passing at speed to blokes in full flight. There was a point where I was okay either side, but playing with really good backs and hitting a cut out at a million miles an hour was a hard step up. It's a lot harder to judge than they make it look

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Great point Burgo!

burgess1978 said:

Yeah. This is true - and another good reason to adjust your structure to force that kid to sometimes pass on his bad side

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See this is exactly the point Chad was making. It seems crazy that NRL players can struggle with it.

Chad said:

No need for sarcasm mate, I was asking a genuine question and didn’t realise what the answers were. You were doing fine telling me until just then.

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I always need sarcasm

HaroldBishop said:

See this is exactly the point Chad was making. It seems crazy that NRL players can struggle with it.

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Not crazy at all when you understand how a lot of junior coaches think/act. They figure out what the kid is already good at, and that’s all the kid gets to do on game day.

What they should be doing is actively trying to put the player in situations where they use new skills (ones they are not good at), and accepting that the player will definitely make some mistakes. That means adjusting the team for the needs of the players, rather than fitting players into cookie cutter roles. They are people - not chess pieces.

Take Kyle Flanagan as an example. Do you think he may have ended up being a better all around player if a coach had grabbed him at 14 and said “Kyle, you are already our best passer, kicker and organiser - but we are going to give someone else those responsibilities for a while and play you at fullback so you can concentrate on running the ball” or “we are going to play you at 9 for a month so you can learn to tackle the big boys”? I think yes, but it may not have been possible anyway because when coaches even try to do that stuff the kid or their parents think they have been “dropped” and get upset. The whole system is broken.

burgess1978 said:

Not crazy at all when you understand how a lot of junior coaches think/act. They figure out what the kid is already good at, and that’s all the kid gets to do on game day.

What they should be doing is actively trying to put the player in situations where they use new skills (ones they are not good at), and accepting that the player will definitely make some mistakes. That means adjusting the team for the needs of the players, rather than fitting players into cookie cutter roles. They are people - not chess pieces.

Take Kyle Flanagan as an example. Do you think he may have ended up being a better all around player if a coach had grabbed him at 14 and said “Kyle, you are already our best passer, kicker and organiser - but we are going to give someone else those responsibilities for a while and play you at fullback so you can concentrate on running the ball” or “we are going to play you at 9 for a month so you can learn to tackle the big boys”? I think yes, but it may not have been possible anyway because when coaches even try to do that stuff the kid or their parents think they have been “dropped” and get upset. The whole system is broken.

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Agree with all of that. My point is it's crazy something as basic as passing both ways isn't coached. Imo most NRL players should be able to do it.

HaroldBishop said:

Agree with all of that. My point is it's crazy something as basic as passing both ways isn't coached. Imo most NRL players should be able to do it.

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Yeah. The system has been broken for a while. They are on the right track with u12’s and down focusing on fundamentals, but there are still a LOT of dinosaurs coaching in 13+ and in the schools. We are still years away from seeing any real change in the 13-15 age bracket.

In big bold letters on the first page of the coaching course it says “This is the age where focusing on performance rather than long-term development does the most damage”. It’s there in black and white, but most coaches still like to pretend it’s 1982.

Only so much most 16 year olds who are playing prop are gunna practice throwing their weak side cut out passes at full speed.

Call him the halfback for a week and that amount might go up by 1 or 2.
Can probably throw a mean one mucking around at training though.

burgess1978 said:

Not crazy at all when you understand how a lot of junior coaches think/act. They figure out what the kid is already good at, and that’s all the kid gets to do on game day.

What they should be doing is actively trying to put the player in situations where they use new skills (ones they are not good at), and accepting that the player will definitely make some mistakes. That means adjusting the team for the needs of the players, rather than fitting players into cookie cutter roles. They are people - not chess pieces.

Take Kyle Flanagan as an example. Do you think he may have ended up being a better all around player if a coach had grabbed him at 14 and said “Kyle, you are already our best passer, kicker and organiser - but we are going to give someone else those responsibilities for a while and play you at fullback so you can concentrate on running the ball” or “we are going to play you at 9 for a month so you can learn to tackle the big boys”? I think yes, but it may not have been possible anyway because when coaches even try to do that stuff the kid or their parents think they have been “dropped” and get upset. The whole system is broken.

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That’s interesting to hear because in any sport technique is the key to performance. You can always get bigger, get more endurance or whatever but good technique is hard to get and also hard to improve.

bort said:

Only so much most 16 year olds who are playing prop are gunna practice throwing their weak side cut out passes at full speed.

Call him the halfback for a week and that amount might go up by 1 or 2.
Can probably throw a mean one mucking around at training though.

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Most kids start playing well before 16.