The Prowler: For or Against?

gavin07

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basically im interested to know who thinks this is a cheap shot and who thinks there is a place for it in rugby league?

im with ricky and ben ross, who came out today and said rugby league is a contact sport and we shouldnt soften it up. ross said something like "i copped 1000 of them last year". if this is true (and i think it is) then a very small percentage of these tackles end up in a serious injury like craig wings. if it wasnt for that injury, no one would have said anything and this thread would never have been created. your thoughts?
 

LeaguePlayer

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that roosters guy was a little cat, who probly couldnt tackle anyone if there back wasnt turned and did anyone notice he went of injured during the game but it wasnt serious
 

gavin07

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you could still keep the wrestling coaches though, as long as they change their methods. they were first employed just to slow down the play the ball and they did this by teaching the defender to get the player onto his back. i have no problem with wrestling coaches, except maybe the fact that there is less attacking football played when play the balls are slowed down
 

zakspiders

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it was just a cheap shot by a wannabe.
back in the day he would have spent the rest of the game avoiding anything to do with the opposition foward pack.

i dont think you will see that sort of thing again anytime soon though.there will be action on the next guy that does something similar.
 

scott17

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that tackle that injured craig win was a dog shot, they planned it.

you can see tupou and the other guy hold him up for brown to come in and shoulder charge his back.

that was a cheap shot
 

Capital_Shark

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i say ban clubs from having wrestling coaches who teach them this

I think you've watched a little too much WWF if you think wrestling coaches educate players on the techniques of dropping a shoulder into another bloke.

To remove the shoulder charge altogether from Rugby League would be detrimental to the sport. Its a spectacle of the game and a real skill when performed correctly on a consistent basis ala Sonny Bill Williams.

I have nothing wrong with Riley Brown's shot on Craig Wing from round 1 because, like it or not, it breaks no written rules. I'm not really interested in any other arguing points like whether or not it was a dog hit or anything; it swung momentum in the Rooster's direction and went a long way to winning them the game. Whether you agree with the spirit it was performed in or not you've got to like the win at all costs mentality.

Like the majority of things in our game (and probably most others for that matter) its not as simple as saying "the next bloke to do a similar tackle (prowler) will be sidelined."

As Ben Ross said he's copped 1000's of shots like that, as have many other players, none of which ended up with a serious injury like Wing; which means they're obviously not so similar after all.

So this means we need a clear definition of a 'prowler tackle' and some key indicators as to the defending player's intent. To simply ban anyone but the first tackler coming in with a shoulder will be chaos. How often do you see 2 tacklers hitting almost simultaneously, with one laying in a shoulder? Plenty. And they're damn good hits too, but rarely does anyone get hurt, and to penalise it would be ridiculous. Or what if the first tackler hits low around the mid section with a bloke over the top with a shoulder? Another widely used tactic and the game would be lesser for it if it were outlawed. Another scenario would be when a bloke is held up in the process of scoring a try out wide by 2 or 3 blokes and the full back comes across with a shoulder barge to bundle the attacker into touch.

This is just off the cuff so I could be way off. But back to the key indicators of a 'prowler' some things to look at could be:

- How late the 'prowler' comes in.
- Whether the 'prower' looks to target a vulnerable exposed area of the ball carrier.
- The current momentum of the ball carrier; i.e. is the ball carrier still making progress in the tack; is the ball carrier looking to get away an off-load. (This would obviously involve something about the referee's 'held' calls)
- Not quiet sure how to word this one but something to take into consideration what the initial tacklers are attempting to do in the tackle (move the attacker backwards, bring him to the ground, roll him over, move him towards touch) and whether the 'prowler's action is inline with that or not.

Its obviously a tricky one that won't be solved overnight. Just within this thread we can't even agree whether there is anything to be solved, so give the NRL a bit of time and hopefully they'll get it right at the end of the day.
 

peachey

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clubs do have wrestling coaches..and they teach them how to slow the play the ball down and these new tackles have come from the wrestling coaches trying to invent new ways to slow the play the ball down..nothing to do with WWE..im not saying the wrestling coaches invented the shoulder charge..its the other "new" tackles im talking about...
 

Capital_Shark

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they planned it.

you can see tupou and the other guy hold him up for brown to come in and shoulder charge his back.

Sorry, I don't believe there is enough time on a professional football field to meticulously plan something like that.

clubs do have wrestling coaches..and they teach them how to slow the play the ball down and these new tackles have come from the wrestling coaches trying to invent new ways to slow the play the ball down..nothing to do with WWE

The slowing of the play the ball has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't disagree that teams try to slow the play the ball down. But shoulder charges and dislocated shoulders are not wrestling techniques. They are to blame for the grapples though.
 

BUZ

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I think you've watched a little too much WWF if you think wrestling coaches educate players on the techniques of dropping a shoulder into another bloke.

To remove the shoulder charge altogether from Rugby League would be detrimental to the sport. Its a spectacle of the game and a real skill when performed correctly on a consistent basis ala Sonny Bill Williams.

I have nothing wrong with Riley Brown's shot on Craig Wing from round 1 because, like it or not, it breaks no written rules. I'm not really interested in any other arguing points like whether or not it was a dog hit or anything; it swung momentum in the Rooster's direction and went a long way to winning them the game. Whether you agree with the spirit it was performed in or not you've got to like the win at all costs mentality.

Like the majority of things in our game (and probably most others for that matter) its not as simple as saying "the next bloke to do a similar tackle (prowler) will be sidelined."

As Ben Ross said he's copped 1000's of shots like that, as have many other players, none of which ended up with a serious injury like Wing; which means they're obviously not so similar after all.

So this means we need a clear definition of a 'prowler tackle' and some key indicators as to the defending player's intent. To simply ban anyone but the first tackler coming in with a shoulder will be chaos. How often do you see 2 tacklers hitting almost simultaneously, with one laying in a shoulder? Plenty. And they're damn good hits too, but rarely does anyone get hurt, and to penalise it would be ridiculous. Or what if the first tackler hits low around the mid section with a bloke over the top with a shoulder? Another widely used tactic and the game would be lesser for it if it were outlawed. Another scenario would be when a bloke is held up in the process of scoring a try out wide by 2 or 3 blokes and the full back comes across with a shoulder barge to bundle the attacker into touch.

This is just off the cuff so I could be way off. But back to the key indicators of a 'prowler' some things to look at could be:

- How late the 'prowler' comes in.
- Whether the 'prower' looks to target a vulnerable exposed area of the ball carrier.
- The current momentum of the ball carrier; i.e. is the ball carrier still making progress in the tack; is the ball carrier looking to get away an off-load. (This would obviously involve something about the referee's 'held' calls)
- Not quiet sure how to word this one but something to take into consideration what the initial tacklers are attempting to do in the tackle (move the attacker backwards, bring him to the ground, roll him over, move him towards touch) and whether the 'prowler's action is inline with that or not.

Its obviously a tricky one that won't be solved overnight. Just within this thread we can't even agree whether there is anything to be solved, so give the NRL a bit of time and hopefully they'll get it right at the end of the day.

Are you off the drink Caps :D?
 

Capital_Shark

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Are you off the drink Caps :D?

Hell no! Its footy season, if anything I'm on the turps more consistently. I was sober at the time of that post but. Like I tell everyone mate, I dunno much, but the little bit I do know is directly related to footy. I'm just waiting for the Australian Government to devote a department to Rugby League so I can get some of those Govt. executive dollars and benefits.
 

scott17

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Sorry, I don't believe there is enough time on a professional football field to meticulously plan something like that.

if u look at the footage wing is going to the ground then u see tupou look up then he pulls wing up a little bit for the guy to shoulder charge him
 

Capital_Shark

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if u look at the footage wing is going to the ground then u see tupou look up then he pulls wing up a little bit for the guy to shoulder charge him

I never said they didn't open the door when opportunity knocked, I just said I doubt they planned it.
 

scott17

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i know they wouldnt have put it in there gameplan but they did it on purpose which is what i was saying or atleast trying to say
 

zakspiders

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brown saw a rare opportunity and took it.
the arguement lies in whether or not he should have done that.

caps has emerged from hibernation and nailed it as usual.
 

Capital_Shark

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caps has emerged from hibernation and nailed it as usual.

haha thanks mate. Not sure if I nailed it, but hopefully some of the decision makers in our game are reading the only brilliant footy forum on the net and at least find some talking points.

From memory the word hibernation has something to do with sleep. Now if only I could remember what sleep was I'd be equipped to comment. BRING ON THE LONG WEEKEND!
 

jimmymac

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and those of you who don't see to much wrong with the tackle, how would we feel if it was on greg bird and put him out for the rest of the year? riley brown is a dog, pure and simple. i seen a very similar tackle in the sharks v sea eagles game, but it was directed to the legs of a sharks player. i think it was reece williams with the ball, and he had 2 or 3 eagles holding on to him, and then all of a sudden, another eagle came flying in behind him and dived into his legs. the only reason they didn't say anything about it was because no one got hurt. if they had of broken williams leg, you would of heard all about it. i feel they should outlaw the prowler, but how long do they let the attacking player struggle in a tackle to produce 2nd phase play, before they outlaw a third tackler coming in? but if you don't allow someone to come into the tackle to stop an attacker from slipping a pass, it could result in points against your team. i don't think they will be able to police it, so don't expect it to happen soon.
 

Capital_Shark

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and those of you who don't see to much wrong with the tackle, how would we feel if it was on greg bird and put him out for the rest of the year? riley brown is a dog, pure and simple.

It'd suck balls if Bird (or any of our players for that matter) got a season ending injury. Whether it came from a 'prowler' or some innocuous looking side step that ends in cruciate ligament damage, I don't think really matters.

Riley Brown broke no rule of the game. Pure and simple.

Say its Grand Final 2008 and the 'prowler' isn't outlawed, or any current rules changed. We're up against the Storm and the opportunity arises for one of our boys to pull off an identical shot on Cam Smith, ending his night which results in us winning. Choice is on you; do you have us win our maiden premiership on the back of some not so pretty play, but legal all the same, or be the thoughtful bridesmaid?
 

bort

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it was a cheap shot, which broke no laws.
basically the only was it can be policed (imho) without too detrimental an effect on the game is
a) speed up calls of 'help' once an opposition player is stationary
and/or
b) outlaw straight shoulder charges on a stationary target involved in a tackle
and/or
c) outlaw straight shoulder charges into the back of an opponent

all have their pros and cons

as jimmy said, id be spewing if bird copped a cheap shot like that but the fact is as it stands its legal
 
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