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Rob

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I don’t necessarily buy into needing the starting middles to do long stints. Ours are the worst in the comp so why not try something different.

We could send out 2/3 middles and give them the job of going crazy for 12/15 min then work your rotation around that.

Having Finucane, Toby, McInnes come on after 12-15 min mark also lessens the energy sapped in the opening exchanges and you could easily push Finucane and Toby into the 2nd half and Cam even play out the game.

Like wise if Hunt, Hazelton Uele are off from the 12-15 min mark + half time and into the second half they should really be as fresh as daisys for another good stint.

We can’t match other teams forward pack by trying to match what they do so find another way.
 
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Rob said:
I don’t necessarily buy into needing the starting middles to do long stints. Ours are the worst in the comp so why not try something different.
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This is not how Fitz runs his forward rotation at all. Finucane or McInnes when they start- sure - but the Sharks in general play their bigger middles for less minutes than other teams do.

The Sharks middles (in general) have a much higher defensive work-rate than middles on other teams. They run less in terms of "metres" than many of the top middles in the game, but they are comparable in terms of attacking involvement in the minutes they play.

That's also why Sharks middles (other than Finucane and McInnes) would rarely show up on any stats list when comparing middles, and why people who only look and "running metres" would have the impression that the Sharks middles are not as good as other teams.

Rob said:
We could send out 2/3 middles and give them the job of going crazy for 12/15 min then work your rotation around that.

Having Finucane, Toby, McInnes come on after 12-15 min mark also lessens the energy sapped in the opening exchanges and you could easily push Finucane and Toby into the 2nd half and Cam even play out the game.
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This is what they do already with Cam and Dale. Toby gets a rest.

Rob said:
Like wise if Hunt, Hazelton Uele are off from the 12-15 min mark + half time and into the second half they should really be as fresh as daisys for another good stint.

We can’t match other teams forward pack by trying to match what they do so find another way.
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They aren't. I haven't looked at every NRL team, but I've compared the Sharks forward rotation to several others and it is unique based on that comparison.
 
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bort

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BurgoShark said:
This is not how Fitz runs his forward rotation at all. Finucane or McInnes when they start- sure - but the Sharks in general play their bigger middles for less minutes than other teams do.

The Sharks middles (in general) have a much higher defensive work-rate than middles on other teams. They run less in terms of "metres" than many of the top middles in the game, but they are comparable in terms of attacking involvement in the minutes they play.

That's also why Sharks middles (other than Finucane and McInnes) would rarely show up on any stats list when comparing middles, and why people who only look and "running metres" would have the impression that the Sharks middles are not as good as other teams.


This is what they do already with Cam and Dale. Toby gets a rest.


They aren't. I haven't looked at every NRL team, but I've compared the Sharks forward rotation to several others and it is unique based on that comparison.
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Unfortunately the article the other day spelled out our whole SET makes well below average meters which is concerning.

I'd definitely be keen to see one of Tommy or Royce (been trusted to start when down on troops) injected no later than 20 mins in and see how that goes. Get Jack on 5ish mins later.
 
BurgoShark

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bort said:
Unfortunately the article the other day spelled out our whole SET makes well below average meters which is concerning.

I'd definitely be keen to see one of Tommy or Royce (been trusted to start when down on troops) injected no later than 20 mins in and see how that goes. Get Jack on 5ish mins later.
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Are you talking about the eyetest article? That article showed no issue in 2022, which is the largest sample size we have of FItz's rotation (the 2023 sample was from 4 games).

I've also shown elsewhere that in 3 of the losses this year (Warriors away, Raiders, Souths) the two teams made comparable yardage on their sets.

... but even if you went all-in on what was in that article, you would make changes to the outside backs (either change personnel, or change the way the teams plays early on in yardage sets). That article specifically said that the Sharks make a little less on early tackles "over the advantage line" than the best teams. The overwhelming majority of sets are yardage sets, and on those the first 3 runs are almost always from outside backs. If you want to fix that, either get Greg Marzhew or play differently (e.g. tell McInnes/Williams to get back behind the ball ASAP).

If you are referring to Sharks forwards sitting lower on the the ETCR (contribution rating) model, that's a different discussion.
 
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BurgoShark said:
Are you talking about the eyetest article? That article showed no issue in 2022, which is the largest sample size we have of FItz's rotation (the 2023 sample was from 4 games).

I've also shown elsewhere that in 3 of the losses this year (Warriors away, Raiders, Souths) the two teams made comparable yardage on their sets.

... but even if you went all-in on what was in that article, you would make changes to the outside backs (either change personnel, or change the way the teams plays early on in yardage sets). That article specifically said that the Sharks make a little less on early tackles "over the advantage line" than the best teams. The overwhelming majority of sets are yardage sets, and on those the first 3 runs are almost always from outside backs.

If you are referring to Sharks forwards sitting lower on the the ETCR (contribution rating) model, that's a different discussion.
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We need to make more yards not comparable if we are just gunna gift penalties and throw away footballs.
It's weird because our backs look like they make okay yards but those stats were damning (yes, over a time period that is only semi relevant to now) - we need to be able to retain better field position so they are getting swarmed less often by defences.

I agree a lot of the graphs suggest okay amounts of work/meters but we need to improve somewhere, they need to be much better than okay unless we are going to improve elsewhere. A bit of both will make both easier...
 
BurgoShark

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bort said:
We need to make more yards not comparable if we are just gunna gift penalties and throw away footballs.
It's weird because our backs look like they make okay yards but those stats were damning (yes, over a time period that is only semi relevant to now) - we need to be able to retain better field position so they are getting swarmed less often by defences.

I agree a lot of the graphs suggest okay amounts of work/meters but we need to improve somewhere, they need to be much better than okay unless we are going to improve elsewhere. A bit of both will make both easier...
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Yup. Giving up a penalty or set restart will often result in someone from your team getting tackled inside your 10m line on play 1. It's hard to make yardage from there.

Maintaining field position is definitely the key.
 
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BurgoShark said:
Yup. Giving up a penalty or set restart will often result in someone from your team getting tackled inside your 10m line on play 1. It's hard to make yardage from there.

Maintaining field position is definitely the key.
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And it would be easier if the forwards all magically got 5-10% better running meters* (or any other number of ways it could get better haha)

*with same speed or faster PTBs
 
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