Slow Starts Vs Dynamic Bench

Sparkles

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Here's the thing I can't shake, and I'm sure you all can explain it.

Why are we so proud of having our most dynamic forwards on the bench, yet still bemoan our slow starts?

I understand that our current bench really packs a punch when they come on. That's terrific. I genuinely love seeing Talakai and Hunt beast-mode tiring opposition. But they're not superheroes who can overcome the several try starts we're giving up against decent teams.

Are the likes of Hunt and Talakai only good when used that way? From what I've seen they could offer a lot of the same if they started. And our starters aren't offering anything they couldn't right now.

Considering our crud starts, wouldn't it be better to get the most dynamic punch in the first 20-30 minutes to try and stop the bleeding, keeping us in the game or at least close? Then let our backs do the job when the defence is tired?

Give me your knowledge oh wise forum posters!
 

bort

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We're in a bit of a position where our starters and our bench are relatively comparative in quality so it looks more interchangeable than some other clubs where the starters are a much bigger step ahead of the bench players.

But at the moment Woods & BHU are more suited for 50ish minutes, Hunt/Fifita/Williams for 30ish

Starters should be laying a solid platform and getting team on front foot - we aren't really starting like that but it's not really been Woods' fault and typically not BHU either. Generally the starters will be a bit fitter, a bit better in defence and more experienced.

Then bench props come on and are either
- not as good and try and grind along until the starters return
- a bit more dynamic and try and bust the other team open (but likely aren't as fit, or are more error prone)

Hunt for example has looked fantastic pretty much every game he plays but make him give his 30 minutes to open the game, against oppositions starters with no fatigue and he will look much worse. BHU has been decent as a starter but would likely have been better off the bench if things were going to plan (ie Fifita was able to start and play like the Fifita of old). Fifita's defence has still be mostly solid so if he could string more games together getting him to do the first 25 or so and last 10 or so could well have been the plan.
I think the idea with Rudolf is they can get more good quality minutes out of him if they keep him out of the opening grind, so while he is playing the role of dynamic bench forward we are trying to get him to do it for minutes more like we would ask from the starters.

Talakai I think would be just as at home starting (on edge) as playing off the bench but if we are playing Graham and Nikora makes more sense to start them and inject Talakai in the middle.
 

Sparkles

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We're in a bit of a position where our starters and our bench are relatively comparative in quality so it looks more interchangeable than some other clubs where the starters are a much bigger step ahead of the bench players.

That's for sure!

Hunt for example has looked fantastic pretty much every game he plays but make him give his 30 minutes to open the game, against oppositions starters with no fatigue and he will look much worse. .

It's funny that he's the only prop that hasn't had a shot at a starting spot. I could easily see Bomber trying him out at BHU's expense. Would he look worse? I'm not so sure. Talakai and Toby haven't looked worse starting, and have showed they can step up their minutes. I'd like to see Hunt get a chance at least, especially with BHU's form being pretty sketchy.

If Hunt did get a start at the same time as the fill in starters Toby's and Talakai's, you'd see almost the whole bench flip with the current starting pack.
 

Wiz

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We're in a bit of a position where our starters and our bench are relatively comparative in quality so it looks more interchangeable than some other clubs where the starters are a much bigger step ahead of the bench players.

But at the moment Woods & BHU are more suited for 50ish minutes, Hunt/Fifita/Williams for 30ish

Starters should be laying a solid platform and getting team on front foot - we aren't really starting like that but it's not really been Woods' fault and typically not BHU either. Generally the starters will be a bit fitter, a bit better in defence and more experienced.

Then bench props come on and are either
- not as good and try and grind along until the starters return
- a bit more dynamic and try and bust the other team open (but likely aren't as fit, or are more error prone)

Hunt for example has looked fantastic pretty much every game he plays but make him give his 30 minutes to open the game, against oppositions starters with no fatigue and he will look much worse. BHU has been decent as a starter but would likely have been better off the bench if things were going to plan (ie Fifita was able to start and play like the Fifita of old). Fifita's defence has still be mostly solid so if he could string more games together getting him to do the first 25 or so and last 10 or so could well have been the plan.
I think the idea with Rudolf is they can get more good quality minutes out of him if they keep him out of the opening grind, so while he is playing the role of dynamic bench forward we are trying to get him to do it for minutes more like we would ask from the starters.

Talakai I think would be just as at home starting (on edge) as playing off the bench but if we are playing Graham and Nikora makes more sense to start them and inject Talakai in the middle.

Talakai deserves that starting spot. It’s his preferred position and he will get better running off SJ. No need to have Nikora there any more.

It should be our best 13 starting - Toby should be starting as well, if we just can’t wait till our bench comes on then that’s a bad thing not a good thing. Get the best 13 out there to open the games gives us our best shot, once they are tired swap them for whoever is on the bench .. (Sorensen,Hunt,Williams,Nikora,Wilton)


I don’t understand.. is the plan to keep Rudolph and Talakai and Hunt (to a lesser degree) as strictly bench players forever ? Get them out there get them starting get them fit.

In the bigger picture I think our starts are also down to the culture/attitude but that’s another story.
 

Sparkles

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Talakai deserves that starting spot. It’s his preferred position and he will get better running off SJ. No need to have Nikora there any more.

Definitely Talakai over Nikora, he offers so much more.

It should be our best 13 starting - Toby should be starting as well, if we just can’t wait till our bench comes on then that’s a bad thing not a good thing. Get the best 13 out there to open the games gives us our best shot, once they are tired swap them for whoever is on the bench .. (Sorensen,Hunt,Williams,Nikora,Wilton)


I don’t understand.. is the plan to keep Rudolph and Talakai and Hunt (to a lesser degree) as strictly bench players forever ? Get them out there get them starting get them fit.

They are our most consistent players, which I think we need on the field more...

In the bigger picture I think our starts are also down to the culture/attitude but that’s another story.

... because they're attitude also seems better. If you had to make a good/bad attitude player lists, I'd only have bad as BHU, Nikora, Woods (at times) and Graham (there's a problem...). Everyone else seems to be putting in and competing hard, even if they're not that good at it
 

Wiz

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Definitely Talakai over Nikora, he offers so much more.



They are our most consistent players, which I think we need on the field more...



... because they're attitude also seems better. If you had to make a good/bad attitude player lists, I'd only have bad as BHU, Nikora, Woods (at times) and Graham (there's a problem...). Everyone else seems to be putting in and competing hard, even if they're not that good at it

Are you agreeing we need our best 13 to start ? And let the bench look after itself
 

bort

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Talakai deserves that starting spot. It’s his preferred position and he will get better running off SJ. No need to have Nikora there any more.

I don't disagree with that at all

It should be our best 13 starting - Toby should be starting as well, if we just can’t wait till our bench comes on then that’s a bad thing not a good thing. Get the best 13 out there to open the games gives us our best shot, once they are tired swap them for whoever is on the bench .. (Sorensen,Hunt,Williams,Nikora,Wilton)

If Rudolf is only good for about 50 or so and is going to be interchanging with Sorensen/Williams I don't mind if they do the first 30ish and Rudolf finishes the game, maybe averages out to be better than if he started for 30 then came back for last 20.
But can definitely accept an argument to start him to try get a better start.

I don’t understand.. is the plan to keep Rudolph and Talakai and Hunt (to a lesser degree) as strictly bench players forever ? Get them out there get them starting get them fit.

This is a bit like saying this last year about BHU, and then he is regularly starting this year. Seems like a big jump to guess because the three first year players* are starting off the bench this year the plan must be to 'keep them as strictly bench players forever'

*counting Talakai as he has a big break from playing and is new to our team
 

Gards

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who does or doesn't start in the forwards won't fix the root causes of our defensive issues

I could see the reasoning if our starting forwards were plodders and getting dominated putting us on the backfoot while dynamic forwards were getting us down field and taking some pressure off but that isn't really the case. Woods has been brilliant starting and Uele mostly good. even if they were playing bad they arn't going to be the main reason we leak points so easily and are under pressure on our line from early game (bad discipline, no comms on edges, no structure, bad tackle technique)

I don't mind slow starts provided we finish well and win and providing by the word slow that doesn't imply getting 30 points on you (more so just sticking with the opposition)

Any points we score early we are just gunna let the opposition put back on us when we slacken off just before half time and 10 mins before full time anyway lol
 

Wiz

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I don't disagree with that at all



If Rudolf is only good for about 50 or so and is going to be interchanging with Sorensen/Williams I don't mind if they do the first 30ish and Rudolf finishes the game, maybe averages out to be better than if he started for 30 then came back for last 20.
But can definitely accept an argument to start him to try get a better start.



This is a bit like saying this last year about BHU, and then he is regularly starting this year. Seems like a big jump to guess because the three first year players* are starting off the bench this year the plan must be to 'keep them as strictly bench players forever'

*counting Talakai as he has a big break from playing and is new to our team

All I’m saying is... keeping Rudolph and Talakai out of the starting line up but having Sorensen and Nikora there instead isn’t a good thing. I don’t see Rudolph and Talakai as bench players I get why they are there for us but it’s counter productive - use the knights game as an example or any other game we’ve started bad in it’s a big responsibility to get them to change the tide once Nikora and Sorensen sht the bed. Coach has done the same thing all year and look at us.

start both of them and get them in that mentality, if they are players we look to keep in the clubs plans and want them to become better then bench isn’t for them, they should be starting, wouldn’t that also make them more fit ? - what’s wrong with Sorensen coming on the last 30 ?

I don’t know, just seems like Rudolph and Talakai are ready to take over and the best 13 should be starting
 

Wiz

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who does or doesn't start in the forwards won't fix the root causes of our defensive issues

I could see the reasoning if our starting forwards were plodders and getting dominated putting us on the backfoot while dynamic forwards were getting us down field and taking some pressure off but that isn't really the case. Woods has been brilliant starting and Uele mostly good. even if they were playing bad they arn't going to be the main reason we leak points so easily and are under pressure on our line from early game (bad discipline, no comms on edges, no structure, bad tackle technique)

I don't mind slow starts provided we finish well and win and providing by the word slow that doesn't imply getting 30 points on you (more so just sticking with the opposition)

Any points we score early we are just gunna let the opposition put back on us when we slacken off just before half time and 10 mins before full time anyway lol

You’re right... but obviously having your best players on the field helps your chances.

BHU,Woods,Talakai,Rudolph,Graham is a solid starting pack... very solid.

Talakai has been better defensively then Nikora so that’s an automatic improvement let alone better in attack
 

bort

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All I’m saying is... keeping Rudolph and Talakai out of the starting line up but having Sorensen and Nikora there instead isn’t a good thing. I don’t see Rudolph and Talakai as bench players I get why they are there for us but it’s counter productive - use the knights game as an example or any other game we’ve started bad in it’s a big responsibility to get them to change the tide once Nikora and Sorensen sht the bed. Coach has done the same thing all year and look at us.

start both of them and get them in that mentality, if they are players we look to keep in the clubs plans and want them to become better then bench isn’t for them, they should be starting, wouldn’t that also make them more fit ? - what’s wrong with Sorensen coming on the last 30 ?

I don’t know, just seems like Rudolph and Talakai are ready to take over and the best 13 should be starting

Talakai > Nikora I 100% agree with. I'm sick of Nikora and would be happy to see him dropped again. But if Bomber wants to keep playing him then he is an 80 minute edge player that can't play anywhere else so makes sense to start him and use Talakai where you need him. Nikora would be basically useless off the bench (most games he's basically useless on the field...). Talakai is a weapon from either.

Rudolf, like I mentioned it is relatively uncommon for middles to start in their first year, this is not the time of year to be trying to get Rudolf to push out extra minutes on the pitch so he can be fit enough to start in time for the off-season. He probably can't play the first 50-60 straight which means playing him for the first 25-30 when he will have less impact, and then again later (where he will be off the bench). VS a Sorensen or Williams who are relatively low impact starting or off the bench. I don't know that for the first 20 minutes of the game Rudolf would be as much better than the other two as he is for the rest, so I can see Bombers reasoning to get the most out of him later. Unless we sign a 13 I'd expect Rudolf to be starting there next season.
 

Sparkles

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Are you agreeing we need our best 13 to start ? And let the bench look after itself

That's a pretty broad statement Wiz... I'm saying that we might get better starts by having Toby, Talakai and probably Hunt starting.
People have started talking about bench rotation, which is a good point. How could the above happen? Takakai can play 80. Toby 50. Hunt? Not sure.
 

stormshark

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Start Most Physical 13, win toss, Kick off- Bash Opposition first set. Rinse/Repeat for first 30 mins. Seemed to work in the 70s.
 

Sparkles

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Start Most Physical 13, win toss, Kick off- Bash Opposition first set. Rinse/Repeat for first 30 mins. Seemed to work in the 70s.

haha maybe that's where I'm at. Get the guys on the field that are hardest to tackle and hit the hardest. The rest will work itself out
Looking at it that way Hunt definitely needs to start!
 

andrew's_sharks

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Here's the thing I can't shake, and I'm sure you all can explain it.

Why are we so proud of having our most dynamic forwards on the bench, yet still bemoan our slow starts?

I understand that our current bench really packs a punch when they come on. That's terrific. I genuinely love seeing Talakai and Hunt beast-mode tiring opposition. But they're not superheroes who can overcome the several try starts we're giving up against decent teams.

Are the likes of Hunt and Talakai only good when used that way? From what I've seen they could offer a lot of the same if they started. And our starters aren't offering anything they couldn't right now.

Considering our crud starts, wouldn't it be better to get the most dynamic punch in the first 20-30 minutes to try and stop the bleeding, keeping us in the game or at least close? Then let our backs do the job when the defence is tired?

Give me your knowledge oh wise forum posters!


Personally I think the starts are killing us.

I don't think sorenson should ever start in the 13 as I don't think he is physically dominant enough.

Personally I think our best side when healthy (Chad for me shouldn't come back in first week of finals as had too long out).

1. Kennedy
2. Katoa
3. Dugan
4. Raminen
5. Ronaldo
6. Connor Tracey (I think he is going to do well when given a whole game)
7. Johnson
8. Woods
9. Brailey
10 BHU
11. Talakai
12. Graham
13. Williams

I personally think Williams (with a focus on defence and simple hard yards is suited for the opening part of a game) I think williams and Talakai help start our sets out right.

14. Toby
15. Royce Hunt
16. Fifita
17. Sorenson/Nikora/Wilton or a utility.

Personally I think that would help us start our games a bit stronger and still provide impact off the bench.
 

snowman

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Here's the thing I can't shake, and I'm sure you all can explain it.

Why are we so proud of having our most dynamic forwards on the bench, yet still bemoan our slow starts?

I understand that our current bench really packs a punch when they come on. That's terrific. I genuinely love seeing Talakai and Hunt beast-mode tiring opposition. But they're not superheroes who can overcome the several try starts we're giving up against decent teams.

Are the likes of Hunt and Talakai only good when used that way? From what I've seen they could offer a lot of the same if they started. And our starters aren't offering anything they couldn't right now.

Considering our crud starts, wouldn't it be better to get the most dynamic punch in the first 20-30 minutes to try and stop the bleeding, keeping us in the game or at least close? Then let our backs do the job when the defence is tired?

Give me your knowledge oh wise forum posters!

for mine, it doesnt matter who starts at the moment as we are a mentally weak team

if a side better positioned than us on the ladder takes the lead we lack the minerals to stand up and fight for momentum back

we are happy to bully the titans and th warriors but lose the plot against the good sides and just capitulate

we lost our defensive coach, who is going to coach attack at the dogs, just to let you know the mess we are in

if we can fix our attitude and defence, it wont matter about the impact off the bench as our starts will be better

it may also be a style thing

i dont think royce hunt would be a good starter, likewise i dont think woods would be good off the bench

i dont think we could start uele and hunt, if you put uele on the bench you have weakened the starting back row to strengthen the bench

talakai is a phenom and it doesnt matter if he starts or now, i think it is more about capitalising on our saud more than anything

nikora has something in him, he is a very good footballer, but he needs to get consistency and learn from talakai on how to impact a game, rather than wait for it to get to him
 

BurgoShark

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Not sure I’d consider Soro low impact. I can think of a few examples (starting and bench) where he Made an immediate difference early in to his stint.
 
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