2022 NRL Round 15 Cronulla Sutherland Sharks vs. Gold Coast Titans @ C.ex Coffs International Stadium, Coffs Harbour, Saturday 18th June 3:00pm

[bort]

Tolman plays more minutes and averages more metres, more post-contact metres and his defensive output is already well discussed. We all know what Fififta means to the playing group but I'd argue with a completely healthy squad next year Tolman has more chance of cracking the 17.

As much as I love both I'm not convinced either should be there in 2023 though.

Tolman doesn't average more meters or post-contact meters per minute played though (I assume). It's reasonably likely if Finucane came in whoever survived out of these two (or perhaps Royce) would have fairly reduced minutes. Tolman upside is he can play more if required, Fifita probably can't but in 10mins either side of halftime he probably makes a bigger impact than Tolman would.

As for bold - do we? Yeah they definitely seem to like the guy but does him playing 20-25 minutes off the bench, or being sat on the bench, definitely inspire the others to play better? Maybe, but I don't know it.

Him passionately cheering the boys on while he sits on the bench for 850k a year might not be the inspiration it seems for the guy out there doing the work for 80 minutes.

I'd hope we could put in just as good a performance against Titans with him on bench as with him sat next to Craig or playing Jets.

They'd both be out if BHU was also fit and decent chance with Oregon coming and Colquhoun and Hazelton rising they are both surplus to requirements next year. Wouldn't mind keeping one or the other very very cheap, wanting to play first grade but expecting to mostly play Jets.

 

[bort]

There's a great video doing the rounds on Facebook at the moment of the Sharks doing JRL clinics in Coffs. Looks good for our boys and our club and it is so good to see them out there doing something great in the community while they are up there for the game.

The other good thing about the video is that they all look really happy and a real team unit ready to smash those Titans on Saturday.

I'd post it but don't know how to do it from Facebook. If someone could do it that would be great.

Should just need to paste the link

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=560720455638671

 

[Sir Chadley]

Should just need to paste the link

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=560720455638671

Thanks Bort. I know it seems so easy for you young guys (haha!) but my phone just would not do it.

 

[Sevshark]

Tolman doesn't average more meters or post-contact meters per minute played though (I assume). It's reasonably likely if Finucane came in whoever survived out of these two (or perhaps Royce) would have fairly reduced minutes. Tolman upside is he can play more if required, Fifita probably can't but in 10mins either side of halftime he probably makes a bigger impact than Tolman would.

As for bold - do we? Yeah they definitely seem to like the guy but does him playing 20-25 minutes off the bench, or being sat on the bench, definitely inspire the others to play better? Maybe, but I don't know it.

Him passionately cheering the boys on while he sits on the bench for 850k a year might not be the inspiration it seems for the guy out there doing the work for 80 minutes.

I'd hope we could put in just as good a performance against Titans with him on bench as with him sat next to Craig or playing Jets.

They'd both be out if BHU was also fit and decent chance with Oregon coming and Colquhoun and Hazelton rising they are both surplus to requirements next year. Wouldn't mind keeping one or the other very very cheap, wanting to play first grade but expecting to mostly play Jets.

Not per minute no, but I'd say with a healthy BHU and Oregon plus Hunt if he stays that the impact role isn't there for him next year and he isn't capable of the higher minute role anymore.

I don't think him on the bench achieves anything more than him in the extended squad just training with them.

I agree that at full strength neither should make the top 17 next year just that Tolman would have a higher chance of appearing on a bench next year.

Edit: In the 2 games where Tolman has played similar minutes to Andrew, around 27, his output has been statistically better, much smaller sample size though obviously.

 

[Rob]

Does hunt actually add an “impact” roll tho?
He may get 1 big hit up per stint on the field along with average footy at best.
He is playing now as we are scrapping the barrel but can’t see him there next year.
JC & Hazelton will jump him by then along with Kafusi.
Can’t see him, Pele, Fifita, Tolman or Graham here next year.

 

[BurgoShark]

Tolman doesn't average more meters or post-contact meters per minute played though (I assume). It's reasonably likely if Finucane came in whoever survived out of these two (or perhaps Royce) would have fairly reduced minutes. Tolman upside is he can play more if required, Fifita probably can't but in 10mins either side of halftime he probably makes a bigger impact than Tolman would.

As for bold - do we? Yeah they definitely seem to like the guy but does him playing 20-25 minutes off the bench, or being sat on the bench, definitely inspire the others to play better? Maybe, but I don't know it.

Him passionately cheering the boys on while he sits on the bench for 850k a year might not be the inspiration it seems for the guy out there doing the work for 80 minutes.

I'd hope we could put in just as good a performance against Titans with him on bench as with him sat next to Craig or playing Jets.

They'd both be out if BHU was also fit and decent chance with Oregon coming and Colquhoun and Hazelton rising they are both surplus to requirements next year. Wouldn't mind keeping one or the other very very cheap, wanting to play first grade but expecting to mostly play Jets.

You assume correctly.

Fifita will give you roughly 20% more attacking output, with a similar defensive output (both workload and efficiency) but Tolman will do it for longer.

Graph is adjusted for to scale of 0-100.



Here is their individual output by round.



Probably the biggest factor though is that Fifita has sat out 2 for games in which Tolman has played. That tells me the coach probably has Tolman ahead of Fifita.

 

[BurgoShark]

Does hunt actually add an “impact” roll tho?
He may get 1 big hit up per stint on the field along with average footy at best.
He is playing now as we are scrapping the barrel but can’t see him there next year.
JC & Hazelton will jump him by then along with Kafusi.
Can’t see him, Pele, Fifita, Tolman or Graham here next year.

From the bench, yes. He's a beast when playing 15-25 off the bench. No Sharks forward comes close for making metres..

Here is Round 10 v Raiders. If the blue is on 200 or better you have had a very good game in terms of metres.



Starting - not so much. On the above scale, he averages ~160 as a starter and ~240 from the bench.

I guess right now the thing is he is making more impact in the first 20 than Tolman was as a starter (~150) - so even though he would be better in another role (Fifita's current role) the best combined use of the currently healthy players is to start Hunt, and to have Tolman play off the bench.

 

[bort]

Yeah I agree Hunt is best as the impact weapon.

Given he is fourth maybe even fifth choice as a starter he is making a decent showing of it I think.

Hunt also started to develop into a bit of a weapon in 2020 before his injury and had a very disrupted 2021. I think he is very capable of being a top 17 player for an NRL team over next few years. Probably in a fully fit squad would fall just outside of that currently for us.

 

[Sparkles]

Does Tolman deserve demotion?

I have no issue either way, drop Fifita or Tolman.

We can afford to keep a max 25 min forward on bench in Fifita with who we have rest of line up, but if Fitz preferred the guy that can do as much work as you ask him to then I don't have any issue with that.
Comparable defensive quality although Tolman across twice the sample size, Fifita in his short stints a bit more of a run threat.

Or you can drop Trindall and assuming everything goes to plan, no injury to spine, then you have Graham, McInnes and Finucane - I'm sure one of them can pick up Trindalls 15 minutes at lock at the end of the game.

Graham could share lock for sure

 

[Rob]

From the bench, yes. He's a beast when playing 15-25 off the bench. No Sharks forward comes close for making metres..

Here is Round 10 v Raiders. If the blue is on 200 or better you have had a very good game in terms of metres.

View attachment 27343

Starting - not so much. On the above scale, he averages ~160 as a starter and ~240 from the bench.

I guess right now the thing is he is making more impact in the first 20 than Tolman was as a starter (~150) - so even though he would be better in another role (Fifita's current role) the best combined use of the currently healthy players is to start Hunt, and to have Tolman play off the bench.

Average of 8.75 meters a hit up doesn’t align with “impact” front rower of the bench imo.

 

[bort]

Average of 8.75 meters a hit up doesn’t align with “impact” front rower of the bench imo.

Who is your best impact prop to compare to?

NAS goes 9.8m a run and is an international with 150 nrl games to his name and absolute behemoth even in the NRL

TPJ sometimes starts, sometimes bench but his average is 8.77

Our new guy Oregon Kaufusi, 9.22

Kamikamica is a good bench prop, averages 9.0

These are foxsports stats though so Royce is 9.42 there...

 

[Sparkles]

Good discussion, and highlights the issue I think we have... who can start?!
We love locks and impact benchies.

 

[Sevshark]

Good discussion, and highlights the issue I think we have... who can start?!
We love locks and impact benchies.

I think our ideal front row with current roster is BHU and Dale with a bench of Toby Royce Tolman/Graham and whoever the forum thinks deserves it more than Trindall that week.

Edit: I completely forgot about jack Williams for moment who would probably be that final bench spot if fit for mine.

 

[andrew's_sharks]

I think our ideal front row with current roster is BHU and Dale with a bench of Toby Royce Tolman/Graham and whoever the forum thinks deserves it more than Trindall that week.

Edit: I completely forgot about jack Williams for moment who would probably be that final bench spot if fit for mine.

I think our ideal starting pack has Toby and BHU as props and Finucane at lock.

 

[BurgoShark]

Average of 8.75 meters a hit up doesn’t align with “impact” front rower of the bench imo.

Maybe that's not enough "per hit-up" for your liking, but picking one stat without any context is meaningless. We don't know where his hit-ups were taken, how many metres he is making from kick returns (which really effects averages), whether he had a couple of 60m runs which dragged up his average, or a game full of 1m runs which dragged it down.

Also - how do you want to measure impact? Is he better off doing 10 runs for 87.5m in 15 minutes of footy, or only 5 runs in that same time at a slightly better average? Imo one of the roles of a bench middle is to get out there and get through as much work as possible in his minutes (in both attack and defence) to save the 60+ minute players having to do it. Averages be damned.

Ultimately we don't have the entire NRL to pick from. We can only choose from the blokes we have - and currently, of all Sharks forwards (including the 3 guys at Newtown) when he plays less than 30 minutes in a bench role, Royce Hunt makes significantly more metres per minute played than any other Sharks forward in any role.

 

[Sevshark]

I think our ideal starting pack has Toby and BHU as props and Finucane at lock.

I'd prefer Mcinnes starting personally.
Just think if we have Toby as the first prop off the bench we're not giving up as much output on both sides of the ball.

Kafusi next year hopefully fixes that problem.

 

[BurgoShark]

I'd prefer Mcinnes starting personally.
Just think if we have Toby as the first prop off the bench we're not giving up as much output on both sides of the ball.

Kafusi next year hopefully fixes that problem.

That's rotation rather than lineup.

I think most agree...

1 - Dale / Cam ~50-60 each
2 - Toby / BHU ~35-45 each
3 - Two other blokes ~20-25 each

What we need is guys who are awesome at #3 and capable of playing role #2 "pretty well" if needed. Imo Williams and Tolman fit that.

Issue right now is that with 3 of those 6 missing... Hunt, Fifita and Hazelton are suited to #3 only, so Fitz is trying to plug a hole by having Graham/Trindall/Wilton rotate through the extra minutes. It's effective sometimes, but not always.

 

[Rob]

Maybe that's not enough "per hit-up" for your liking, but picking one stat without any context is meaningless. We don't know where his hit-ups were taken, how many metres he is making from kick returns (which really effects averages), whether he had a couple of 60m runs which dragged up his average, or a game full of 1m runs which dragged it down.

Also - how do you want to measure impact? Is he better off doing 10 runs for 87.5m in 15 minutes of footy, or only 5 runs in that same time at a slightly better average? Imo one of the roles of a bench middle is to get out there and get through as much work as possible in his minutes (in both attack and defence) to save the 60+ minute players having to do it. Averages be damned.

Ultimately we don't have the entire NRL to pick from. We can only choose from the blokes we have - and currently, of all Sharks forwards (including the 3 guys at Newtown) when he plays less than 30 minutes in a bench role, Royce Hunt makes significantly more metres per minute played than any other Sharks forward in any role.

I was just running from the game you cherry picked the stats from not me.
I actually rewatched his 30 min he played and we had 75% of the ball when he was on, had kick of returns, 20 meters from a missed tackle on him. Canberra where down to 12 for 90% of his minutes.
Stats mean nothing they can be made to make any point.
I simply said I don’t rate Hunt as a IMPACT front rower or a first grader at that.
I don’t fall for his 1 highlight hit up per week
Clearly you see more in him than I do, guess we will see whst Fitz does if he resigns him or not.

 

[BurgoShark]

I was just running from the game you cherry picked the stats from not me.
I actually rewatched his 30 min he played and we had 75% of the ball when he was on, had kick of returns, 20 meters from a missed tackle on him. Canberra where down to 12 for 90% of his minutes.
Stats mean nothing they can be made to make any point.
I simply said I don’t rate Hunt as a IMPACT front rower or a first grader at that.
I don’t fall for his 1 highlight hit up per week
Clearly you see more in him than I do, guess we will see whst Fitz does if he resigns him or not.

Oh I agree. Rd1 was even more extreme. We had the ball almost the whole time in his 12 minutes. Stats can’t capture any of that stuff though, which is exactly what I said. If you look at all of 2020 and 2022, for this one stat “metres per minute” he is the best forward. It’s not just that one game. You said Tolman should be picked because he makes more metres. which is not actually true. Tolman is better at most things, but Hunt is the better metre eater.

I certainly am not on the Royce Hunt train. I just think he is great in short spurts, which can be useful when the rest of your rotation goes as planned. If he has to play more than 25 minutes though (or start) he is not as effective.

As bort said, he has potential but currently sits outside out the best 17 if everyone is fit. There are posters on here who love Hunt, but coach Fitz seems to agree with you, bort and I - since Williams, Tolman and Fifita have all played ahead of Hunt repeatedly.

 

[bort]

.
I simply said I don’t rate Hunt as a IMPACT front rower or a first grader at that.
I don’t fall for his 1 highlight hit up per week
Clearly you see more in him than I do, guess we will see whst Fitz does if he resigns him or not.

Not necessarily a definitive measure either. Plenty of coaches have lost a player they would have wanted to keep.

Obviously they’d try not to keep a player they don’t like though, and will typically try to keep a player they do like.